[CATHERINE O’BRIEN]
And quite frankly, I’m not good at all the things. And I don’t like doing all the things, so I should, I do them. But I mean, my husband’s really great at the playing the getting down on the floor, doing all that stuff. I don’t particularly enjoy that. Why am I going to force myself to do those things that I don’t enjoy? If he’s having a good time, I have my own things I do with them that I enjoy doing that they enjoy doing with me.
[VERONICA CISNEROS]
Hey girl. Imagine a life where you feel supported, connected and understood. I get it. Being a mom is hard, especially when you’re spinning so many plates. We exhaust ourselves trying to create the perfect life for our family. You deserve to enjoy your family without the stress perfectionism brings. On this podcast, I provide practical and relatable life experiences. I teach women quick and easy to use strategies to help them reclaim their identity, re-ignite their marriage and enjoy their children. If you’re ready to be challenged, then pull up a chair, grab a pen and paper because it’s about to go down. I’m Veronica Cisneros, a licensed marriage and family therapist and this is the Empowered and Unapologetic podcast.

Hey ladies, welcome to Empowered and Unapologetic. I’m your host, Veronica Cisneros. Today’s guest is a licensed marriage and family therapist and the founder of happywithaby.com. She’s also the author of Happy With Baby: Essential Relationship Advice When Partners Become Parents. She knows what it’s like to be overwhelmed, out of energy and out of ideas as a new parent. She created Happy With Baby in order for new and expecting parents to discover the advice she wishes she could have had when managing expectations of parenthood and relationships. Where the hell was this book when I was having a kid, because I’m going to tell you right now, I’ve ran into all kinds of crazy. She currently lives in Sacramento, California, where she enjoys paddle boarding and rowing with her husband and two kids. So please help me by welcoming Catherine O’Brien. Hey Catherine.
[CATHERINE]
Thank you so much, Veronica for having me. I’m so excited to be here. The book is what I wish I had had.
[VERONICA]
Right? I tell women that all the time, like you have no idea what it’s taken for me to get here. Like it’s taken 10 years of self-discovery and a whole lot of madness and one burnt casserole away from losing absolutely everything, like losing my shit. So it’s good to know that there’s these books out and then in addition to that, it’s written from, you’re a professional, so you’re not just like, you didn’t just experience this. You also have the professional background to help us out.
[CATHERINE]
Yes. I was a therapist, I was a licensed therapist when I had my first child, over 12 years now, he just turned 12 and I was so ill-prepared. It was like this, I’m like kind of embarrassed that I was so naive to like really, the impact it would have on me as a person but then also my relationship with my husband. We were pretty newly married, but we’d been together for five years. So I was like, “Oh yes, we got this great relationship. This is easy. We can communicate, we can do that.” And then you throw in sleep deprivation and having to learn a million new things about a person but just even like, I had never really changed diapers. I wasn’t used to, like, I didn’t never breastfed before. I hadn’t done all these things like bottles and all sorts of, so it’s like trying to learn a bunch of new stuff with sleep deprivation and it totally was not good. It was really hard. It was really, really hard.
[VERONICA]
For me when I first became a mother, I remember wanting to do everything right. I mean, even my pregnancy, I did only like certain amount of fish, chicken. I didn’t eat out, even though I was craving McDonald’s and Burger King, you name it. I didn’t eat out. I was like very, very strict on what I was feeding my baby. My second and third one, totally different story. Totally different story. I’m thankful they’re alive. So yes, the first one though, it was just like, I don’t know what the hell I’m doing. All of these changes are happening. You feel fat, you feel like not sexy, and then you become a mom and then you want to do everything. Also my intent wasn’t perfect. It was just keeping this baby alive and making sure she knew she was loved. I didn’t realize I was overcompensating and I didn’t realize how much it was impacting my relationship with my husband, nor did I know that he felt like he was in competition with her. Didn’t know any of that was happening. So for you, Catherine, can you share with us, like maybe what was your breaking point? What was your failure story? Just so I can feel a little bit validated here.
[CATHERINE]
I validate like absolutely everything you said. I mean, I’ve heard it so many times, I want to say a million times, close enough from new parents everywhere. So I remember my breaking point was, I had gone back to work as a therapist and I had re-arranged my schedule. The good thing about private practice was I arranged it around my husband’s schedule. So it was like this hodgepodge of a thing. So I was working on a Saturday morning or Saturday afternoon, because I plan it around when I had to feed the baby, this constant, like figuring out like, okay, when can I go in and dah, dah, dah. So when we got into like some kind of, I wouldn’t say a fight, because we’re not like fighting type people, but sort of, or somehow you’d hurt my feelings. I remember I’m going to work to work with couples and I’m like crying on my way to the office.

Like, “Oh my gosh, like, what has happened to this relationship that I have with my husband and he’s hurt my feelings?” And to this day, I can’t even tell you what it was about. And I called a girlfriend, she’s also a therapist and her kids are older, like about five years older than mine. Like just far enough ahead of me to be able to like call my fears. She answered which she rarely ever answers and I was just so grateful. She did that day and I was just like crying and I’m like, “I don’t know what’s wrong with us.” And she’s like, “When was the last time you were on a date?” And this were like five months in and I’m like, “We haven’t been on a date.” We did go on a date for our anniversary, which was like three weeks after his birth. We were gone for literally 45 minutes but other than that, we had not been anywhere, just the two of us. So I listened to her, she calmed me down, I went home. I was like, “Hey, maybe we need to do something.” And my mom was able to watch our son for a little bit and we just went out and I think we went for a walk and had dessert at this little place near our house. It was a psych. Oh my gosh, like, this is so wonderful, just to be able to talk to you.

Sometimes people say like don’t spend the time talking about your kids. Talk about other things, but how do you not talk about your children? So of course we talked about our son and all those things, but then we’re able to talk about other things and it was just like such a good, like, “Okay, this is why I’m with you. This is like, I do like you. You’re not against me. We’re on the same team and just kind of that.” So then like, “How do we continue to make this a habit? How do we make sure that we’re spending time to connect with each other?” Because we had had other issues too, like in the middle of the night, being tired and the baby crying. This was like not the only thing that happened. There had been multiple things. This was just like the final, like breaking point at that moment.
[VERONICA]
So this is quite common. We’re all experiencing this. It’s just something we don’t usually talk about. And most of us don’t talk about because we don’t want, it’s either we don’t want to admit that we’re struggling because how would people perceive us or that the minute I say this out loud, I make it real. And I don’t want to make it real because I’ve been trying to cover it up for so long. You know what I mean? So for you, what would you say is the killer for relationships?
[CATHERINE]
Oh, I think the killer is the buildup of resentment about what is happening, like you mentioned your husband feeling like he was in competition with the baby. That’s like not uncommon. I hear that phrase all the time, and it’s like so I think, we get resentful because it’s like, well, I was here first or like, oh, I feel like I’m doing all the household, I’m doing all the chores. I’m taking the brunt of it. I’ve got the mental load. I’m carrying the mental load. Like we both, it comes on both sides and then we’re not having this conversation about this resentment that is building up because we’re not spending any time talking about anything except for what has to happen in this moment for the baby.
[VERONICA]
Bingo. So the other thing that I hear from women, and they often tell me this is, “Well, just don’t want to make him upset.” And I’ll encourage them to share the load, but then they’ll go into, “I just don’t want to make him upset. And it’s easier for me to just take the baby because the baby, I already know the routine and I know how to do it well. He struggles with the baby and then I don’t want our kids to see him yell. I don’t want our kids to see him set off. So it’s just easier if I do it all.”
[CATHERINE]
Yes. And then we get upset about that because we’re doing it all. And I say, we each have our learning curve. And if we’re spending more time with the baby on the front end, because especially like if we’re breastfeeding or doing most of that caretaking, then we’re going to be spending more time. You need to let them spend time. They will figure it out. They will have a new, they’ll have their own rhythm. They’ll do something else, so let them figure out their way without us over their shoulder, thinking how they’re doing it because the baby will cry, because the baby cried with you in the beginning too? So let them figure it out and have their way and then they’ll feel so much better. They’ll feel competent. They’ll actually want to do it because they won’t feel like you’re telling them how to do it all the time and you’ll both be much happier.
[VERONICA]
Absolutely. I appreciate that you said all of those things, that your husband will figure out his rhythm. That is so important for your husband to figure out his rhythm. I can’t tell you how many clients, how many male clients I see and their primary complaint is, “I feel like I have to be invited to play with my kids. I feel like I have to be invited to be there with my wife because anytime I’m around, she complains about how I discipline them, how I talk to them or I’m not, the bottle’s not warm enough. It’s cold. Are you really going to, you didn’t bring snacks or she’s always pointing out my flaws or all of the things I’m not doing, but then she’s not allowing me in. So how the hell am I supposed to know even what to do?” I agree that resentment is so killer. How do you define resentment? Because another thing I’m told by women is I don’t think it’s resentment. And then once we start doing work together, it’s like, holy shit. Hell yes, it’s resentment. I didn’t even know that that’s what it was.
[CATHERINE]
Yes. Yes. How do I define resentment? That’s a good question. I kind of see it as resentment is like list of things that you’re keeping score about, like I’m doing it, and I kind of see it as it piles up and it becomes this wall that keeps you from connecting or even seeing your partner for what they’re giving or doing or whatever. So it’s just like these things that happen or don’t happen for that matter. And it’s just like a pile up of them that you hold onto and that maybe you throw it back at them when they haven’t done something or they haven’t done it. And you mentioned like they don’t have, the snacks or whatever. I I’ll never forget. I would take the kids to the park and I would have the stroller and I would have the diaper bag, maybe I would forget a diaper or two, but I would have snacks. I would have toys to play with all this stuff.

My husband would take the kids to the park, he would literally take wipes and one diaper and stick it in his pocket and off he would go. They had a great time. They were fine. They did it their way. I did it my way, probably the much harder way, but I’m just like, “Oh no, I’m prepared for everything.” And he’s just like, “Hey,” and then I’d be like, “Don’t you need snacks?” He’s like, “Oh, if we do, we’ll just come back. We’ll manage. It’ll be fine.” That’s how he is. That’s how he operates with them and I operate totally different and it works both for both of us.
[VERONICA]
Bingo. So why is it, because when you’re saying that I hear a good amount of my listeners saying, “No, you don’t understand. If my son does not have his fishies, he’s going to break out in a tantrum. My husband’s going to get pissed off, they’re going to come back from the park. He says, he’s going to go back. He’s not going to go back. He was so frustrated. He was going to give him to me.”
[CATHERINE]
He’ll know for the next time to bring the fishies.
[VERONICA]
Bingo. Yes. I’m so glad you, he will know next time. Even if let him [crosstalk]
[CATHERINE]
It’s a learning curve. If he’s got to learn the hard way, then he’s going to learn the hard way.
[VERONICA]
Yes. I say this often in Spanish, I say it in Spanish, “Dejalo, let him, dejalo let him. Let him figure it out.”
[CATHERINE]
How did you learn that your kid needed the fishies?
[VERONICA]
Exactly, exactly. Through trial and error. I encourage women just like you’re encouraging women to take a step back because guess what? You’re going to end up looking like the crazy mom and dad’s going to look like Disneyland, dad,
[CATHERINE]
And you’re going to be so tired. Don’t be so tired. You know, you don’t have to do it all. We can’t do it all. We can not sustainably do at all.
[VERONICA]
What do you think it is that keeps us from stepping back? I’m going to call you out ladies. I know you’re listening. You’re going to like hate me in five seconds. But what do you think it is, why do you think we’re so afraid of letting go of control? Because that’s what you’re doing. You’re controlling your husband. You’re being his mom. Why do you think it’s so difficult for us to let go of that? We know it’s going to enhance our marriage. We know it’s going to increase connection. We know where it’s probably going to increase intimacy and yet we still want it.
[CATHERINE]
Yes. I also think there’s a lot of pressure out there, societal pressure that we have to be doing all these things. Research shows we’re spending more time with our children now as working mothers, full-time working mothers than mothers used to like 30, 40 years ago. We’re doing everything. And I feel like there’s continued pressure to do it and our partners are stepping up. It also shows us dads are more involved with their children now than ever, than they ever have been. So let them do it. We can’t do both. We can’t do both.
[VERONICA]
No, no.
[CATHERINE]
And how about a change? I feel like we really have to change that narrative, that should be the expectations. I don’t want that for my children. I want them to be able to, I don’t want them to feel this guilt if they haven’t done all the things. And quite frankly, I’m not good at all the things and I don’t like doing all the things. So I actually do them. I mean, my husband’s really great at the playing, the getting down on the floor, doing all that stuff. I don’t particularly enjoy that. Why am I going to force myself to do those things that I don’t enjoy if he’s having a good time? I have my own things I do with them that I enjoy doing that they enjoy doing with me.
[VERONICA]
Yup. Yup. So what do you think that says about women? Let me rephrase that. When we’re attempting to, when we recognize it is control, that that’s essentially what we’re attempting to do, what, in your opinion do you think we’re attempting to avoid? So if I put all my attention on my husband, I put all of my attention on my kids, what am I essentially avoiding?
[CATHERINE]
I mean, you’re avoiding caring for yourself.
[VERONICA]
Bingo. Why? Why do we go there?
[CATHERINE]
I think sometimes we don’t feel worthy to take care of ourselves. I think there’s guilt. Like, well, there’s all these other things I have to do that. So that’s the easiest thing for me to take off the plate because nobody’s going to say anything to me about it, except for, I’m going to be exhausted and maybe sick at the end of the day, but nobody’s going to say anything to me like, “Oh, you didn’t do this.” So like the expectations of somebody else are on you for that. But I think a lot of times, and women that I speak with, like, I don’t think they feel like they deserve it part of the time.
[VERONICA]
Yes. It’s like, “Unless I meet all of these expectations, unless I follow all of these rules and unless I’m perceived in this manner, I’m not deserving of it. So I have to continue doing what I’m doing and it’ll get better when. We’re just going through a phase, it’s not a big deal. And yes, I kind of feel like my husband’s my roommate, but it’s not a big deal because we’re like great. We’re great business partners.” So in your book, and this is a question I definitely want to ask you the three questions to ask yourself and your partner daily to ensure you’re on the same team and bonding.
[CATHERINE]
Yes. So my very first question is what are you doing to make sure that you’re taking care of yourself? And it’s my very first question, because it’s usually the last one we address. And I know that if we don’t address it, personally and professionally, I know this, that we can’t do the other things long-term. And we fall short and we, like I mentioned, we’re too tired. We end up getting sick if we’re not taking care of ourselves. Like all those things. So we’ve got to really, I feel like oftentimes women will feel like they’re being selfish. Like, “Oh, I did this for myself or I feel guilty. Well, I’ve worked all day, so I need to rush home.” But if you can spend, and I’m not even saying, it’s like a couple hours thing. Like if you’re spending like 15 minutes, Monday, maybe 30 minutes, another, maybe you get extra time on the weekend doing something for yourself that feels good, that’s like filling your cup, that helps you put the oxygen mask on, whatever term you want to use, then do that because a healthy mom is a good mom. That’s what your children need. You know, if we’re taking care of ourselves and that helps us be present, it’s not the quantity of time we spend with our children. It’s the quality of time we’re able to offer them.
[VERONICA]
Yes, yes. You read a book to them, you read a book to your kid, maybe once a week. Guess what? When they’re older, they’re going to say my mom read to me every single night, every single night, because they’re not looking for all of the fine details. They’re just looking for that connection. So you don’t have to be on them every single night. What are the other two questions?
[CATHERINE]
The second question is what are you doing to support and connect with your partner? And those are little things too. Those are like, “Hey, we’re doing daily check-ins, where after work or when we meet up together, we check in like, “How was your day? What’s something good that happened? Or what’s something you’re struggling with?” Anything like that, or this thing happened with the kids or whatever you want it to be. And then also making that time, like where do you fit that date night in? And the date night can be an afternoon lunch or something where you’re spending a little bit more time, not on your phone not, interrupted by like other things, and maybe the kids are with you, but you’re making that time to connect and talk and like spend quality time together.
[VERONICA]
Absolutely.
[CATHERINE]
The third question, and this goes back to what we talked about is letting dad have his learning curve is what are you doing to nurture bond and connect with your child? And I know, and that’s my third question because it’s usually the one that we’re doing and some of us moms typically, I would say 99% of the month I speak to anyways, are the ones that we’re doing that. We’re doing it a magnificently. But I put it on there because letting, that is also for your partner to answer and letting them have their time to nurture bond and connect with their child too. And I think these questions are important from now until whenever they go imagine, move out of the house. and maybe even after that, because as my children are older, now they’re 12 and eight and I tell them to clean their room and I want them to get their homework done and did they eat their vegetables? Am I spending quality, nurturing time with them where I’m not like putting demands on them or making sure they’re meeting these certain expectations of mine or goals or whatever you want to call it and actually like enjoying reading a book with them or we’re outside playing soccer or we’re doing something like that. And it’s not all. And that’s the same with your relationship. Like your need, those fun bonding moments.
[VERONICA]
Yes. And I agree they’re completely different. The relationship, just kind of piggyback what you said, my relationship with my daughters is so different than my husband’s relationship with them. And the minute I was able to let go, let go of all those expectations that I placed on myself and if I’m being a hundred percent honest, also letting go of the expectations I placed on him, it required me accepting him for who he was and who he’s not. The minute I was able to do that, holy crap, the relationship that he has with the girls, there’s no way I could have created, and I say created because I attempted to create, mold him into what I wanted him to be, but there’s no way I could’ve created that. I didn’t even know that that existed and if I continued on that path, on the path that most of us moms in the beginning tend to walk down, I would have never discovered it and it would have impacted our relationship significantly. And I don’t think we’d be where we’re at today if I didn’t pull back.
[CATHERINE]
Yes. So, I mean, how did you notice that? How did like, “Hey, I need to pull back?” Or was there something that happened that like stood out to you?
[VERONICA]
So there’s a couple of things, how much time do we have, there’s a couple of things. So one of them that hit really, really hard was the fact that Willie and I were one month away from divorce after we had Aliyah, our oldest. So that helps me understand how vulnerable our relationship really is. What I learned in that season of our life was I really have to know who the hell I am outside of being a wife and a mom. I really have to own that. I have to figure that out and that took me a long time. The second thing was when, I think it was either Willy or somebody else had said it, “Be the man to your wife that you want your daughters to marry.” Be that example. And Willie, I mean, don’t get me wrong, I will drop kick him in a heartbeat. You know, however, he really is, he’s very flirtatious. He does all of the things, extremely respectful, extremely loving.

Again, I’m not saying he’s perfect. Like I mentioned earlier, I will drop kick him in a heartbeat. However, it’s allowing myself to be loved by him, which I agree with you a lot of us moms don’t believe that we’re worthy of it, unless we meet all of these expectations and we look a certain way. And it was letting go of all of that and realizing, “No, hell no, I deserve this love.” So when my husband compliments me, you bet your ass I embrace it intimately, lights on lights off, positioned wherever like, game on because I’m getting, you know what I mean? I’m definitely enjoying this? It was that transition of accepting my husband and allowing him to be him and allowing me to be loved.
[CATHERINE]
Yes. Oh, I love that. I think that it’s so important that we take in what they’re giving to us, because I think so often we’re being so critical on ourselves. Like body image is a huge issue after a baby because our bodies are not the same. And it takes a long time to get comfortable back in our bodies. So it’s like, we feel like if we’re not feeling good, then they must not, they probably don’t want us and we’ll like keep pushing them away and rejecting them. And it’s like, no, let them love you. Go slow. Let them know what feels comfortable, let them know what’s not and talk about it and say like, “I don’t feel right.” And let them reassure you because oftentimes they want to let you know and be there for you.
[VERONICA]
Yes. The thing is, it’s a big change for them too. You know, I think we’re, I don’t want to say we’re so self-absorbed, but kind of we’re thinking that everything’s happening to us and it’s only us and in reality, it’s also happening to them. You know, and if we allow ourselves to kind of take those blinders off and look at the big picture, how is it impacting him? And I love your date nights. You mentioned having quiet, you’re going to have conversations about your kids, but also stepping outside of that and asking questions about them. You know, one of the questions I remember, Willie and I went on, we went away for Valentine’s day and one of the questions we had asked each other is what would you say is one thing that’s holding me back from success? That was a really hard question to answer because it’s like I have to point out maybe something that you’re really insecure about and that now it’s exposed because I see it. Learned so much about my husband and he also answered the question and that was a big pill to swallow because it’s like, “Oh, shit. You see that? Okay.” So yes, I think it’s us constantly evolving and growing and getting to know each other.
[CATHERINE]
Right. I mean, and that’s like the beauty of the relationship. Once we grow and they see us, but they love us, they want the best for us. Like, usually they’re telling us that is because they can see what we also don’t see in ourselves.
[VERONICA]
Yes. Can you repeat that please, for the people in the chip seats?
[CATHERINE]
Yes. They can see what we don’t see in ourselves. And I think, especially as moms, we need to be reminded. I mean, I can get so critical about what I’m not doing and it is so helpful when my husband will be like, he’ll point out, like look at all the things you are doing. And I don’t really know that you see yourself exactly the way, correctly. You’re looking in a different, you’re looking in that fun house mirror, and it’s not very, it’s not right. And then it’s like, and then what do your kids say? Like they’ll come back and do I upset, you know my son this morning, I was trying to help him with some math thing and that’s, I don’t know, sixth grade math is —
[VERONICA]
Nope. Not a chance in hell.
[CATHERINE]
And I’m like, I don’t know how I went through high school math because I can’t even figure out his sixth grade math now. So we had a little thing, but at the end it’s good. And they do like out of the blue, the random times that they’ll let you know that they love you or thank you for something or something like that. And I think it’s like, we’ve got to listen. We’ve got to hear those moments. We have a lot of things that we think about ourselves, but we got to listen to what our kids are saying to us and our partners are saying to us.
[VERONICA]
Absolutely. So final two questions. And these are questions I ask everyone, what are you doing right now, you personally, to live the life you want to live?
[CATHERINE]
What am I doing right now? That’s a good question. Oh gosh, that was a really good question. Caught me off guard. What am I doing? I have, especially over this last year with the pandemic and everything, I have this like, pressure of like all these things I have to do. Like I am, if I don’t have a goal, then somehow it’s not happening and like really trying to learn to, when I do something is celebrate that and myself and like celebrating this time. My son, he’s going to be promoting so he’s going on a junior high next year. Like, that’s a big deal. We’ve made it a long way and I want to enjoy that and not just be like quick to the next thing. It’s kind of my MO is I’m always like quick to the next thing like, “Oh, you did this?” And as this is finishing, I’m already starting the next thing and it’s like, no, like really learning how to slow down and enjoy these moments and be in these moments with my kids, which has been a 12-year practice.

And it’s like, sometimes I’m really good at it and sometimes I need like the reminders for my husband that like, “Hey, what are you doing?” Like I’m enjoying this. I’m really like slowing down and being in it. And I think this last year has helped with that because life had slowed down and I’ve kind of been a little bit nervous as things are like opening up and activities are starting. I’m like, “Oh,” like I’m excited for things to get back to some normalcy, but I’m also like, oh, I kind of, I did enjoy things, having less things on our plate because there was more time for that and trying to figure out how to like balance that a little bit better.
[VERONICA]
Absolutely. I love that. I love that. So being more present, it sounds like.
[CATHERINE]
Yes.
[VERONICA]
I love that. All right. So second question. What advice, in one sentence, what advice would you give to the mom who feels stressed and disconnected?
[CATHERINE]
Ooh, one sentence. Let’s see if I can, oh gosh. I feel like I’ve come down to two.
[VERONICA]
Do it with more than one sentence. It’s all right.
[CATHERINE]
So a mom is stressed and feeling disconnected. I would say you, but I I know, okay, this is my one sentence, but what I know is the moms that are worried about all the things are the moms that are doing so much and care so much and love so much and I just want to say like, you are doing amazing, like slow down and see, and look and see what you’re doing. Look at your child, be present with them, be present with your partner and you don’t have to do all the things. You are enough in you.
[VERONICA]
Absolutely. I love that. I think that’s so important. It’s so important if us moms could embrace that advice. Holy moly. How far we’d go? I think we get so stuck in what’s familiar and what we watched our mom do and our grandmas do and this dysfunctional pattern that has been passed down to us. But if we can really step outside of our comfort zone and do something different.
[CATHERINE]
Yes, I feel like, I mean, one of the things is like, you see like, oh, like you’ve got to get your kid in this class and you’ve got to do this and if they’re not in that they’ve got to start taking music classes for their brain or whatever. It’s like, you can put music on. I’ve been telling parents I’m like, those classes are for you to meet people.
[VERONICA]
Amen.
[CATHERINE]
Those classes are, those good for your kids? Sure.
[VERONICA]
Sure.
[CATHERINE]
I think it’s more important that they’re for you to meet and connect with other people because you can recreate some of that stuff. You read to your child, you sing to your child, you play music, you talk to them. Those things are enough. Incorporating them into your life and doing things with them is plenty. That stuff is like bonus. Great. If you do it. Go meet some people meet some friends for connection. I think those are good for connection. I don’t think they’re for your child to get into whatever school you want them to get into. You know, you can create some of that stuff, your own, if that’s important to you.
[VERONICA]
Absolutely. I agree with you a hundred percent. Yes. Because if you’re going in for that, then that’s a whole another therapy session. We’ll talk later about that one. Catherine thank you so much for being on. This has been so much fun.
[CATHERINE]
Yes. I’ve enjoyed this so much. Thank you for having me Veronica.
[VERONICA]
Absolutely. So where can we get your book and how can we find you?
[CATHERINE]
You can get my book anywhere books are sold, on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, any other bookstores online. It’s Happy With Baby: Essential Relationship Advice When Partners Become Parents. Well, I got to think there for a second, to many P’s. And then my website’s happywithbaby.com, and I’m on social media, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, all those at Happy With Baby. So, well and easy
[VERONICA]
Make sure you guys follow her. Thank you again, Catherine.
[CATHERINE]
Thank you so much.
[VERONICA]
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