[VERONICA]:
Empowered and Unapologetic is part of the Practice of the Practice Podcast Network, a family of podcasts that changed the world. To hear other podcasts like the Bomb Mom podcast, Beta Male Revolution, or Imperfect Thriving, go to practiceofthepractice.com/network.

Have you ever thought, how did I manage to lose myself? Being a mom is so hard, especially when we’re feeling stressed and disconnected. We exhaust ourselves trying to create this perfect life for our family. You deserve to enjoy your marriage and your kids, without the stress perfectionism brings. I am going to teach you how to identify who you are, outside of all of the roles you play.

Hi, I’m Veronica Cisneros. I’m a wife, mother of three, and a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. I am on a mission to teach women just like you how to become empowered and unapologetic. Welcome to our girl gang.

I am a forty-year-old woman of three boys who runs a machine shop in Southern California. I am very artistic. I play several musical instruments and love to draw and paint. I’ve been with my husband for nine years. We’re an awesome couple who supports and encourages each other and our own individual, personal growth. Music, family and creativity get me energized. I’m a go-getter that doesn’t stop until I get my goals or surpass them. My codependency issues are what started me down this path of seeking to be empowered and unapologetic. Family and friends always seem to come to me for help or advice so it was easy to fall into that role. After being in the group for over a year, I’m starting to feel and be my true, authentic self.

Ladies, I’m going to tell you right now, this episode, this episode means a lot to me, here’s why. She’s a dear friend of mine, and in addition to that, she trusted me to take her on this new path of self-discovery. I’m not gonna lie, I challenged her like no other and she was up for it every single time. She was focused, she worked hard. And I’m proud to say she recently graduated from our VIP group. So please help me by welcoming Alejandra Urbanovsky. Ladies, grab a pen and paper because it’s about to get real, and you’re gonna want to take notes.

[VERONICA]:
Hey, Alex. So first things first, tell us a little bit about yourself; your family, your kids, your story.

[ALEX]:
I’m Alex, I have three boys, twenty-one, nine and five. I am a general manager for a machine shop in Southern California. And that’s about it. I mean, I have a son who I have adopted and raised since he was two years old. And my other two boys are with me as well. And my husband has adopted those boys. And so we are a majorly blended family, non traditional in almost all of the senses, so… but, you know, we’re very cohesive and it’s like any other normal family, I believe.

[VERONICA]:
I like how you said a non traditional… what did you say? It’s kind of like a next level blended family.

[ALEX]:
Yeah. Two baby mamas, two baby daddies. So it’s very different.

[VERONICA]:
Absolutely. So, your request today was finding balance because of extreme behaviors.

[ALEX]:
Right.

[VERONICA]:
Can you give me a little bit more details? Please explain.

[ALEX]:
I tend to go full bore on my exercise and my diets. And if I fall off the wagon, I tend to really just, like, grab a burrito and just say, ah, screw it. I’ll start again, whenever. Or I just, you know, continue to just eat however, or not exercise. So I’m always, like, full bore or zero. So really, in joining the group, I’m trying to find my balance and be able to allow myself to, you know, if I mess up today, I can get back at it tomorrow, why am I waiting until Monday or, you know, there’s… I always have to have a set deadline or a set time to start. And so, through the group, I’ve really given myself some grace and just continued on my journey and not really stuck to the roles that I set for myself.

[VERONICA]:
Absolutely. So one thing that pops up for me is you mentioned like, complete extreme behavior, right? I’m either all in or I’m not.

[ALEX]:
Right.

[VERONICA]:
And being able to go ahead and if I’m not all in, well, then I’ll do it tomorrow. I’ll do it next week. Tell me a time when you felt like you were experiencing some level of success.

[ALEX]:
When we were doing the P90X, right before I was about to get divorced from my ex husband, I was like on day eighty. And then my marriage just went down the tubes. So I didn’t get to finish my ninety days. And so it was, like, I mean, not only was I losing my marriage, but I was also losing the eighty days I already invested into P90X, but I felt like I invested all this time and effort, I had lost 54 pounds, but my marriage was more important to try to save. So I just kind of put that on the back burner. And I actually didn’t go back to complete it until two years later. And I completed it twice. So when I did, I was really super proud of myself. But in between times, I had also started it up again, and you know, maybe got to like day twenty or day thirty, and then it’s always something, like, something is more important for me to do.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah.

[ALEX]:
So sometimes I get discouraged with that because I’m like, why can’t I just put myself first? So the last few times that I’ve done P90X, I gave myself grace. And I was really proud of myself because I just was like, I’m not going to start this cycle all over again because then I feel like I’m failing. I can continue on, there is no rule. Like, I’m not on day one again, I’m on day twenty-two even though there’s been four days in between our last session. So it’s really helped with my sense of not feeling like a failure. It’s not failing. It’s only failing if I completely stop. So it’s just changing my mindset on what I deem as success.

[VERONICA]:
How did you get there where you started to shift your mindset?

[ALEX]:
Funnily enough, it was another extreme behavior. I was like, you know what, I’m gonna exercise and I’m gonna do this and I’m gonna stop drinking and blah, blah, blah, you know, just do the whole healthy thing. And so I was doing that, and I just completely, you know, I was like, okay, full-on health mode, let’s just go for this. And so I quit drinking, was eating healthy, I was like, I’m gonna do this for sixty days. Again, another time limit, right? And my husband came back from traveling, and it was at my fifty-five day mark, and I was like, you know what, I’m gonna have a glass of wine.

[VERONICA]:
Cuz I need to celebrate, duh. I need to celebrate the success.

[ALEX]:
Yeah. Exactly. So I was like, you know what, I’m gonna have a glass of wine. And I’m five days away from completing my sixty days, but this is gonna be somewhat of, like, allowing myself to not hit a deadline, but be proud of myself for the fifty-five days of clean eating, you know what I mean? So it was like, you know, I started to feel like, it doesn’t matter. There’s no deadline, you can live life, you don’t have to be extreme, you don’t have to quit one hundred percent, you don’t have to, you know, so, all of these things that I’m allowing myself, like, I’m giving myself permission. And really, that’s just what is helping me to find my balance, and I don’t have to do anything I don’t want to. I can enjoy what I do. So I can go for a walk, I can jump on the treadmill, I can walk the dog. And really, back in December, I started doing Jiu Jitsu, and I had one hundred percent convinced myself that I did not want to do Jiu Jitsu before I even started. I’m like, this was an idea that you had, you big dummy. And I was like, no, boxing is gonna be funner, like, I have to go to boxing, boxing is what I know. And I always tend to go back to the comfort of what I’ve already tried. So when I went to go watch Jiu Jitsu, before I joined, I felt a sense of family there. I was watching them, and everybody was so encouraging. And the other part of it was, I don’t know what the hell I’m doing. I don’t expect to be perfect here. And it gave me, again, another sense of comfort where there was no pressure at all. And so, to me, I found that to be just like a home. So, the following week, I think, or maybe like a day later, I went back and they had gis for you to borrow. And I jumped right in, like, I did all the moves, and struggled with a lot of things and I had a frickin great time. It was awesome.

[VERONICA]:
So there was a shift from your extremes to this change of mindset. How did that happen? Where did that come from?

[ALEX]:
Internally. I think it’s just allowing myself, giving myself permission to just not have to be perfect.

[VERONICA]:
Did you just… I guess I’m asking more of like, did you just wake up one day and be like, you know what, I don’t have to be perfect. And so I’m gonna shift my mindset. How did that happen?

[ALEX]:
No. Well, it’s been at least a year of being in the group. The Empowered and Unapologetic, I think, started in February. And I felt like, you know, after months of doing the work and the group, doing the challenges, really just pushing myself out of my comfort zone on various levels, both physically, and mentally, like…

[VERONICA]:
Sorry, not sorry.

[ALEX]:
Yeah, thanks a lot. Really just being challenged in different ways. You know, like, I’m used to task-based challenges. And you see the accomplishment, you get the check mark, you move on. Well, this is a lengthy process, you know, you go forward, you go back. And I feel like the… It really did show me that the only person that I can control is myself. And so, ultimately, it gives you a sense of freedom to where, you know, anything that happens, you’re now disappointed in yourself, and you’re like, oh, but I can change this. The next time this happens, this is what I can do to change the way that I react to the situation. So, I don’t know, it’s been extremely freeing, even though there were some slide backs.

[VERONICA]:
Absolutely. I remember you had won one of the challenges. And one of the prizes was a free coaching call. And so we had that coaching call, and I remember having a discussion with you about codependency, and what that was like for you. And I think it’s not necessarily only the dieting and the eating and the exercise, and that fear of failure. I’ve noticed it with relationships. And then, in addition to that, your friendships. And we talked about your past, with your past marriage and your current marriage, and it was like, okay, wait a minute, I do, I need to stop this extreme behavior because I’m trying to rescue everyone and I’m drowning at the same time.

[ALEX]:
Right.

[VERONICA]:
And then it was through one of our conversations that it was like, okay, wait a minute. Because I had just started Empowered and Unapologetic, and so I knew I needed to start it but I didn’t know what everybody needed. And it was through our discussion and then talking to other people, it was like, okay, we need to do a retreat. I have to get all of these women together and we need to go ahead and go deeper. And then, from there, we launched the VIP group. And the reason why I launched the VIP group was because of you. And there were a couple other women that were like okay, wait a minute, how do we continue to implement this? And just kind of watching your growth, watching you shift in, okay, I don’t need to be attached or imprisoned by the checklist. I don’t need to be imprisoned by trying to go out and find extreme success. I can find success in the steps that I take towards the life I want to live.

[ALEX]:
In the little wins, the little wins.

[VERONICA]:
Tell me more about that.

[ALEX]:
I started to be able to recognize my own behaviors, like, when it was happening. So don’t get me wrong, it was such a struggle. I was floundering because I was in uncharted territory. I’m like, if I give advice, I’m in my zone, like, I know that. But when I’m trying to be the listener, and I don’t have to give feedback, it was awkward as hell at first. And I’m trying to find my new footing, trying to be a better friend, be a better cousin, be a better wife, all those roles that I play, and understand really what the other person is looking for from me, really. Maybe they just had a hard day and they don’t necessarily need me to fix them. So I could just be an ear, and understanding that being an ear doesn’t mean that you’re not engaging with the person. You don’t have to do anything, really. And that doesn’t mean you’re a bad friend. And it doesn’t mean you’re, you know, a bad anything. It’s just, you know, you’re there supporting them. So that’s a different type of good friend, a good cousin, good sister, you know, everything.

[VERONICA]:
Hey, ladies. Are you loving this episode? Because if you are, share it with your friends. In addition to that, I want to personally invite you into my private Facebook group, Empowered and Unapologetic. On this page, I want you to post what was your favorite episode? What lessons have you learned? And what was your greatest takeaway there? It’s an interactive page where you find women just like you, learning and growing.

[VERONICA]:
So one thing I noticed for myself, and I’m not sure if you can relate, I noticed I would give all of the advice to everyone, and even cling on to one person. I didn’t even realize I was doing it, but I would cling on to one person because I needed to fix them. And they could only rely on me because I was the chosen one, and I was the one who had all the answers, and I was going to tell them how they were doing their life wrong, and how to go ahead and take the steps towards success, towards living their life of freedom. And the other thing I would do is at work, you know, in my business, I would go ahead and take on a bazillion tasks, because I needed that… I didn’t know at the time, but I needed that validation, I needed that check… how you phrased it, the check in the box. And looking back now, I realize I was avoiding, and I was trying to distract myself as much as possible. Because if anybody was to just say, girl, stop, then that would mean I would have to sit in the pain, I would have to actually look at the things that I was attempting to avoid.

[ALEX]:
Yeah. My mom for years told me, she was like, oh, you know, just telling your children, oh, be careful, you know, you’re gonna get hurt there, and trying to give them the answers to the test, as she said, it doesn’t help. She was like, you have to get hurt. You have to get burned by the fire, you have to get a cut in order for you to understand that there’s danger there. And offering all the knowledge to anybody, unfortunately, it’s not helpful. We all have to experience our own hurt. And a good friend of mine told me when I was giving her advice, she was like, hey, you know, actually, you drove me away when you did that. And I’m like, you know, I really took that to heart because I was like, I was just trying to help you. But she’s always been super honest with me and I take her honesty to heart because, you know, she’s well intentioned. Even though that stung because I was like, oh my god, I didn’t want to hurt you. I didn’t want to do that to you. I didn’t realize. And that really did help me to shift my mindset to where I was like, oh, if I don’t tell people this experience, it’s still gonna happen. So it’s okay. They will learn and that’s okay too.

[VERONICA]:
That’s the part though. And that’s also what’s led you to the extreme behaviors which we’re currently working on too. I have to be able to go ahead and sit with somebody in their pain.

[ALEX]:
Yeah, which is tough.

[VERONICA]:
Bingo. And not rescue them. And the other part is, I can no longer be somebody’s hero. I remember when we had that conversation, and kind of just bringing it all together with regards to your extreme behaviors, and feeling as if there has to be something, you have to do something and take it to the next level. But it has to be done in X, Y, and Z with this timeline, on this date. And if I don’t, well, then I go from one extreme to the other. I say, screw it, I’m not going to do anything at all. I’ll do it Monday, I’ll do it Monday.

[ALEX]:
Yep, one hundred percent. I mean, I could see my codependency shifting. Like, my son, we had a great relationship when he moved back, because I felt a sense of relief. He’s an adult now. I don’t have to protect him, I don’t have to do anything for him. He’s here because he wants to be here. It’s a no pressure situation. Then, all of a sudden, I could feel myself going back to that, like, going back to mom, and, you know, but this time it was different because I told him, you know, this is what mom is going through.

[VERONICA]:
Yes.

[ALEX]:
So [unclear] you understand, scars and all, I’ve been through some pretty traumatic crap with your dad, and you went through it with me. And so I want you to know that these are the things that I’m currently struggling with. So that way, if you see me doing this, or if I’m doing it to you, just call me out, like, I’m very open for you to tell me that I’m doing these things, and I’m not trying to. So don’t think like, this is disrespectful or anything like that, because he was a very respectful young man. And we’ve gotten into some heated conversations, we’ve also gotten to some really good conversations, like, you know, I missed that Zoom call for the VIP group to have, like, a three-hour beautiful conversation with my son. It was really awesome, because we really just dug deep into a lot of the things that were just underlying, underneath the surface. And we didn’t yell, we didn’t scream, we didn’t cry. It was like, just a normal adult conversation. So I’m enjoying the transition, the sense of freedom that I’m getting from letting go.

[VERONICA]:
Yes, yes. And I have to say, you know, kind of like, I wish I… well, I’m not gonna press stop. But I have to say, I’m so proud of you. Because just watching your transition, and, you know, remembering your first coaching call to where you’re at. And it’s like, no, Veronica, you don’t understand. [Unclear].

[ALEX]:
The question you asked me, who do you control? And I’m like, my kids, my…

[VERONICA]:
Yeah, girl. You gave me a list.

[ALEX]:
The list was long. Now, who do I control? Just me.

[VERONICA]:
Bingo. But just kind of seeing it, like, where you were then to where you are now. And back then, I don’t think this conversation with your son would have gone down that way. It would have been like, okay, this is what you need to do, and you don’t understand. I’m protecting you. Right?

[ALEX]:
Yes. Yeah, I had a list of things for him, you know, I’m like, this is what you need to do, son, and I’m putting that pressure. And this is one of the questions you had asked me before, and it’s like, how does the pressure on you translate to the people that you’re delegating these tasks to? And I was like, oh, yes, I know. Because I have this sense of urgency for my son. And I’m like, why am I doing this to him? I can’t figure out what the word is because I don’t have this in my vocabulary yet, but when you say, okay, I’m gonna let you do this. You know, I don’t know how to say this. I don’t know what it is. I told my son, I said, you set your goals, you set your timelines, talk to me about them, you know, and I didn’t say, and I need to know by next week. None of that. Even though I was so tempted, I’m like, okay, so have you worked on this? You know, like, oh, just leave it alone. Leave it alone.

[VERONICA]:
And that’s okay. So, bringing it all together – how do you do that? How do you let go? And so your request for this coaching call was I want to let go of this extreme behavior. I want to go ahead and find balance. And balance is interesting because we can find balance in the midst of chaos. And it’s not necessarily, you know, it’s always going to be there, like, 80/20, or 40/60, or whatever. And in so many ways that might be your balance.

[ALEX]:
I have almost come to that conclusion. I feel like I’m almost there, like to where I don’t… I don’t know. I’m just allowing myself to be free to choose to do whatever I need to do for that time space because my life fluctuates with work. And sometimes when I come home, I’m so drained, and I can’t meal prep, and I can’t go for the walk because I have to go shopping and cook and do all these other things. And so maybe not today, but tomorrow’s okay. And to me, that balance is just really what’s going on in your life at that time. Sometimes it’s being at the hospital with someone. There’s always something that takes you away from what you want to do. But if you really want to do something, you can find the time. So that’s really just it right now and where I’m trying to find my balance, and just allow myself to be… I don’t have to be the marathon runner.

[VERONICA]:
No. So you’re giving yourself permission to not be all of those things. Now, I’m gonna challenge you because, I mean, it wouldn’t be a coaching call if I [unclear].

[ALEX]:
That’s what you do. Right.

[VERONICA]:
Okay, so you’ve learned quite a lot at the retreat, in your VIP group, through coaching calls. So I’m going to challenge you. You asked for balance because I have extreme behaviors. I want you to come up with three steps and I want it… We’re gonna make it simple. I’m gonna guide you, I’m here the entire time.

[ALEX]:
Okay.

[VERONICA]:
I want you to come up with three steps because we’ve talked about identifying the issue. We’ve talked about being able to explore and feel the emotion, you know, with the conversation. We’ve talked about being uncomfortable. We’ve talked about extreme behavior, and even pinpointing why we’ve gone there – because of distraction, because of avoidance. What are three steps, small steps, you need to take to continue this pursuit to your version of balance, minus the extremes?

[ALEX]:
Okay. I’m writing this down, by the way, with bullet points. Small steps I need to take to get to my version of balance.

[VERONICA]:
Yes.

[ALEX]:
Okay. All right.

[VERONICA]:
I’m gonna give you the first one, I’ll give you the first one. The other two, you got to come up with yourself. I’m gonna give you a pass just because everybody’s listening.

[ALEX]:
Awesome. Okay. Go for it.

[VERONICA]:
Why am I so afraid to take small steps to success? Why does it have to be extreme?

[ALEX]:
Are you asking me this question to answer now?

[VERONICA]:
No, not to answer now because we’re gonna be on here for, like, four hours.

[ALEX]:
Oh. Okay.

[VERONICA]:
You’re gonna write this down. And in addition to that, of course, you are going to post it in our VIP group.

[ALEX]:
Of course. Not a problem. You know me.

[VERONICA]:
Yes. So being able to go and identify what that’s all about. And I want you to explore, like, where did I learn this from?

[ALEX]:
I already know, it’s my dad. He’s another extreme behavior. We’re twins.

[VERONICA]:
Bingo. Okay, so now you’re… So, by answering that question, you’re gonna start to continue to see a lot of the… not only the extreme behavior, but the dysfunction in it and the patterns, which now that you’ll be able to identify them, you’ll also be able to challenge and break, which is the goal. All right, step two, so you have already identified it. What would be step two? So I identified where I’m at, identified why the extreme behaviors benefit me, and how they feel so comfortable. What would be step two?

[ALEX]:
Oh, geez, I have no idea. You know how this goes with me. I have to have time to think about these things.

[VERONICA]:
This is why we’re doing this because I want you to get comfortable.

[ALEX]:
Oh my gosh, small steps that I need to take to get to my version of balance. Hmm.

[VERONICA]:
This is where your extreme behavior comes in. This is why I’m doing this.

[ALEX]:
Oh, my goodness,

[VERONICA]:
Because you’re looking for the perfect answer, versus…

[ALEX]:
I’m just looking for any answer at this point. I’m like, okay, it’s eight o’clock. No coffee. Let’s see. I honestly have no clue.

[VERONICA]:
Okay. Well, let’s take it to step two then.

[ALEX]:
Okay.

[VERONICA]:
How have these extreme behaviors served me?

[ALEX]:
Well, obviously I can see the success right in front of me.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah. It’s instant gratification. Instant validation.

[ALEX]:
It’s instant.

[VERONICA]:
Just like the glass of wine, just like the donuts, just like the Oreo cookies and everything else. Instant gratification.

[ALEX]:
Yeah, I’m the type that, you know, when I start something I’m… I was listening to your podcast with Melissa yesterday, on my way home and I was like, oh my gosh, that is so me. Because she was saying about how, you know, you look online and you see these six week results and I’m, you know, whatever, and I always have in the back of my head, that fifty pounds that I lost wasn’t lost in two days. It was two pounds this week, five pounds next week, six pounds the next, zero the following, you know. And those are the reminders. That’s why I go back to things that I know, because I experienced success in them. And I’ve also talked in the VIP group about this, even having others chime in, as to what I can do to get more answers to my weight loss and things like that. But I always want to know, you know, like, is this gonna give me good results? I want to know what the end game is. Am I putting in all this effort for nothing to happen for me? I know my body, you know, that type of talk when you start a diet. It’s like, I can only do Atkins, even though that was a diet from centuries ago, and they’ve improved on it. So, for me, it’s always that finding comfort in something that I know worked.

[VERONICA]:
Bingo, which then gave you your third step – what if this doesn’t work?

[ALEX]:
Yeah. That’s always the crappy part because I just always feel like I’ve wasted all my time. I legit have cried in the Jenny Craig counseling area where they give you the food, and they weigh you and all that because I just was like, I did everything I was supposed to do. Why don’t I see the results? And the poor lady was like, oh, don’t cry. I’m sure it’s not the first time that it’s happened but, you know, you put your effort, you expect results.

[VERONICA]:
So, answer that. Even right now. If this wasn’t to work, would you just go to the corner and then lay out and just, like, end? Like, everything would just end and you would just give up? Well, no, because you haven’t given up today, you haven’t given up yesterday, or any of the other times you’ve attempted to do something. Like, that’s the thing we completely fail to realize. If this doesn’t work, that’s absolutely okay. It’s okay. Because I’m going to find something else. That’s where willingness comes in. I have this strong desire for change and I am willing to go ahead and lean into my insecurities, I am willing to challenge my fears, because I’m going to do it. And I might need help. I might need somebody to guide me along the way. However, I want this so badly that I will do it.

We get so lost in the what if this doesn’t work? Like, oh my god, what if this doesn’t work? What if I do do this and this happens, and this happens? Okay, so let’s go there. Let’s go ahead and let’s look at it right now. Versus just staying stuck in that mindset of distortion and catastrophizing, because then we can look at it in the face and say, oh, well, if that doesn’t work then I take another step in that direction. However, I’m gonna get there because look at how far I’ve come. That’s why in the beginning, I asked you to give me your successes.

[ALEX]:
Yeah. When you ask us to post on the mirrors, the mirror challenges, I put a lot of thought into the things that I want to post for that week, and what’s going to help motivate me and get me to the next post-it, you know, or mirror little saying. And one of those things that I put up was, I’m not where I want to be, but I’m not where I was.

[VERONICA]:
Yes.

[ALEX]:
So that, to me, is a small step win. You’re not at your ultimate goal, but you’re further than you were before, so that’s okay. So even when you slide back, you’re still further than you were before. So those are the things that just keep me going.

[VERONICA]:
Boom. So guess what, this is homework, you have to put the girls in the VIP group, they already know, anytime we’re doing a coaching call, anytime I have a revelation or something happens, you’re doing homework and you’re posting it in the group. So I want to see this post in the group. Alex, my last two questions. This is a question I ask everybody. What are you doing right now, personally, what are you doing to live the life you want to live?

[ALEX]:
I’m actually taking myself out of my comfort zone, as crazy as that sounds. It’s like, what other thing can I do to make myself completely uncomfortable? Let’s go do that. And I don’t know why, but it feels good to be out of my comfort zone because it’s my chance to just be me. I don’t have to be the number one, I don’t have to excel, I don’t have to… I can just be the normal me, normal me is just silly and crazy and funny, like, you know, no pressure situation. And really, that’s what I’m doing right now at this second is just really taking myself out of my comfort zone and not needing or wanting to have that ultimate success with everything I do. I can suck at some stuff, and that’s really nice.

[VERONICA]:
Alright, second question. What advice would you give to the mom who feels stressed and disconnected?

[ALEX]:
Oh, I can relate. That’s what I can say. And really, I feel like the disconnection part is partially you being disconnected to yourself.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah.

[ALEX]:
I know some people think that it’s being disconnected from your husband, or disconnected from your mom, or anybody else. But for me, it was disconnected from myself. And I would say that, you know, just challenge yourself and see what the good results will be. And it’s gonna take some time, but you’re worth it.

[VERONICA]:
Oh, right now when you said that I got chills. I got chills. Alex, thank you so very much for being on because I know, right now, there are several women that can relate with you and identify with you. And I know there were taking notes.

[ALEX]:
I hope so. That was fun.

[VERONICA]:
Thank you again,

[ALEX]:
You’re welcome.

[VERONICA]:
What’s up, ladies? Just want to let you guys know that your ratings and reviews for this podcast are greatly appreciated. If you love this podcast, please go to iTunes right now and rate and review. Thank you, guys.

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This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, Practice of the Practice, or the guests, are providing legal, mental health, or other professional information. If you need a professional, you should find one.