[MAUREEN TOWNS]
I say the same thing when I’m teaching skills, if you can do this once you get a gold medal. If you could refrain from old behaviors, you got a silver. Like it’s such a progress, not perfection, this whole mantra of, and be kind to yourself and take a deep breath and say, “Man, I really screwed that up. Here’s what I wish I’d done.”
[VERONICAH CISNEROS]
Yes, exactly.
[MAUREEN]
And the kids, like you say, the kids are like, “Oh, okay. So I’m allowed to screw up, admit it, try again?”
[VERONICA]
Hey girl. Imagine a life where you feel supported, connected and understood. I get it. Being a mom is hard, especially when you’re spinning so many plates. We exhaust ourselves trying to create the perfect life for our family. You deserve to enjoy your family without the stress perfectionism brings. On this podcast, I provide practical and relatable life experiences. I teach women quick and easy to use strategies to help them reclaim their identity, re-ignite their marriage and enjoy their children. If you’re ready to be challenged, then pull up a chair, grab a pen and paper because it’s about to go down. I’m Veronica Cisneros, a licensed marriage and family therapist and this is the Empowered and Unapologetic podcast.
[VERONICA]
Hey ladies, welcome to Empowered and Unapologetic. I’m your host, Veronica Cisneros. Today’s guest is here for the second round because our first episode was so good and to be quite honest, I felt like you guys needed more. So I asked Maureen, “Maureen, hey, are you totally down to do another episode?” And Maureen said …
[MAUREEN]
“Yes.”
[VERONICA]
So today’s guest is a relationship mentor with over 25 years of nursing experience in both public and private health care across Canada. After experiencing mental illness and addiction with her own children, she founded Maureen Towns Consulting to help families struggling to care for their own loved ones. Her work with parents inspires them to rediscover themselves within chaotic and challenging situations. She is the host of the Broken Open Podcast and the author of Broken Open: A Mother’s Journey to Survive Her Children’s Addiction and Mental Illness. Maureen, welcome back.
[MAUREEN]
Thanks so much for having me back. I’m excited to be here again.
[VERONICA]
I’m super excited. So today I took out all of the questions because it was like, no, we do better when we’re just having a conversation. And what you guys don’t know is we already had the conversation. We just got it going. I was like, “Okay, wait a minute. We got to record this.” So Maureen, one big thing that I hear over and over is how do I parent a depressed child? And I thought, why not have one, a mother who has experienced this herself, and in addition, she’s also a nurse and you’ve also run into this in your career and guess what, I can help too? So I thought, why not give our listeners the best of both worlds or three worlds? So I’m just going to start off with that question. How do you parent a depressed child or teen? Where would you go with that first
[MAUREEN]
Well, the first thing I would do is probably really try and get curious and ask a lot of questions. And so I would ask a lot of questions of the child, not in an interrogation way, but what’s it like for you?
[VERONICA]
Beautiful.
[MAUREEN]
You know that sort of, you know, so when they say, “Well, I’m depressed,” well what are you feeling? Can you pin it down to what made you feel different today than yesterday? What do you think you need? How can I support you? That sounds tough, like those validation skills. When I talk to parents who are, are parenting a kid who’s unwell, they get worried that, it seems like on or off, I either get to push my kid to achieve or I’m giving up completely and that scares them because now I’ve got this child on my sofa who can’t do the dishes because they’re depressed, can’t go to school because they’re depressed, won’t follow through on anything. And then if I push them on that, then I’m being insensitive.

How do I communicate with someone? And so I think I would ask a lot of questions and show and try and muster up. It must be like, depression can feel like wet cement around your feet. Like it’s just heavy, everything’s heavy, everything’s hard, things that that you enjoy doing, it’s just too much work, man. Like it’s like an apathy towards everything. And so lots of understanding and just know that you’re going to be frustrated and that you’re going to be better able to offer that empathy and curiosity if you’re looking after yourself.
[VERONICA]
Yes.
[MAUREEN]
So go back to the self care. And the other questions that I would ask would be specifically of the child’s therapist. I would say, “Okay, so I’m having trouble when the dishes aren’t done, when I’ve left in the morning for work, and they’ve said going to do this, this and this during the day and I get home and nothing’s done. How would you recommend I approach that?” Because you don’t want to just throw up your hands and say, “Well, I guess we can’t expect anything, but what do I do? But again, I would ask, do a lot of validating asking what’s it feel like for you? And when you want to talk about it let me know. Or I’m here to support you and this isn’t going to last forever. That’s another important bit of messaging I would remind a teen because they don’t know that. They think it’s going to last forever.
[VERONICA]
I appreciate that you mentioned therapists and asking them for their recommendation. So do you think, well, let me ask, as a mom, when do you think it’d be appropriate to engage in therapy or even consider it, or even ask your kid if they’re open to it?
[MAUREEN]
Well, I think it’s always a good idea. Honestly. I don’t think there’s any special threshold. I think that, but the child has to want it, has to be willing to at least try it. And that’s how I probably propose it. If someone seems resistant, I would say, look, it’s not, would you be willing to give it a try? Would you try it for three visits? Would you try it for, and I would also talk about the fact that not every therapist is going to be a good fit. And so if you try it and it’s not feeling good would you be willing to try someone else or another kind of therapy? And I would invite them to try things like therapy through saying things like, “I know there’s help out there for you. I know that you don’t need to feel like this forever.” That sort of thing. Like, it sounds like you’ve got a lot of things to work through with someone who’s qualified to do that with you, like that kind of statement.
[VERONICA]
I hear a lot of parents they’ll go straight to, “Well, back in my day my dad or my mom would just slap me out of it or they would force me to do my chores.” These kids just need this. These kids just need tough love they’re just trying to do it for attention. I can’t tell you how many times I hear that. I’ve had, I was teaching a parenting class and it was about depression and what are the signs? And I remember one of the males stood up and he’s like, “This is a crock of bullshit.” He straight up, stood up and said, this is a crock of bullshit. And I, don’t get me wrong, my hood side wanted to say, “All right, let’s go.” But then it was like, okay, wait a minute. What is he trying to communicate? You’re a therapist Veronica and you’re supposed to like set the standard. So calm down. Bring it back Veronica.

And I was like he has a point. So I was like, “Please tell me more.” And he’s like, “I was never told it’s going to be okay. Nobody ever asked me about my emotions, nobody. Nobody ever sat down with me and said, hey, how are you doing? You want me to do that with my kid who’s sneaking out, who won’t do any of his homework? He’s failing all of his classes, the principal’s threatening to kick them out. You want me to ask my kid, how is he doing?” So my immediate response is, “Well, what you’re doing, how is that working?” And he right away looked at me like deer in headlights and he was like, “Well, it’s not. That’s why I’m here.”

So I’m going to tell you, I’m going to be providing you with a bunch of feedback. I’m going to be teaching you a whole bunch of stuff that sounds like quite frankly, frequently, or frankly bullshit. I’m going to be very straight up with you. It is going to sound like that because we weren’t given that. We weren’t given those opportunities. we weren’t shown how to regulate our emotions. We weren’t shown what depression looks like, which ends up developing an anxious child or an anxious adult, ends up developing a depressed adult. So let me ask you. And I asked him, “If you don’t mind, can you please share what is it like in adulthood? Did you struggle with anxiety? Did you struggle with depression?”

Right away he sat down and he’s like, “Yes, let’s do something different. Let me help you. Let’s do it together. I’m not going to put it past you. That, yes, this sounds like bullshit. I’m right there standing right next to you. I agree.” And there’s something going on that one, we’re not one aware of two, there’s all kinds of things, all kinds of questions and this heightened level of uncertainty that we have because it’s our kid and we love them. I hear you and we got to do something different because what our parents did only developed anxious and depressed adults who didn’t know how to regulate their emotions, who maybe turned to drinking or smoking or complete avoidance.
[MAUREEN]
Oh yes. There was all kinds of things that went on back in the day that showed up as social issues that nobody talked about. So I appreciate what you’re saying about when we don’t learn how to support each other in how we feel. If it’s not being talked about, it’s being acted out and so you push it down, you stuff it down, you power through, you suck it up, you move the woodpile, chop more wood, like all the things that we had to do. It’s going to show up later, like you said. And so, yes, like I sucked it up and I’m really proud of that and I pulled myself up by the bootstraps and I wear this like some sort of badge of honor. I did it myself, therefore you should too.

And yet I ended up having to go back and dig up and I’m still learning. How do I feel? Still trying to figure it out. Okay, where is that? Why is my stomach in knots today? Why am I having abdominal cramps for no reason? Oh, it’s anxiety. Oh, that’s weird. I didn’t think I had that. So yes, I appreciate that. But I also really appreciate that dad standing up and saying that because it does feel like we’re raising a generation, and I hear this, and I could go there. We’re raising a generation of people who don’t know how to suck it up. Like everything’s a diagnosis. Everybody gets a medal. Like that’s like really, there’s no way [crosstalk]. But I really do appreciate that perspective, but where my head goes in that too, is that often what we’re, well, for me, what I’m unwilling to accept in others and what I get frustrated about being asked to accept in others and learn new skills, it’s usually because there’s something in me that I’m not accepting and haven’t learned how to do.

When I can let go of my judgment of myself and accept my own feelings, I am so much more accepting and able to meet others in that space too. So good on the dad because that, I’d stand up too, and I’d be like, “This sounds like a bunch of bullshit.” But the person that’s speaking to you that’s because I can’t do it for me, and I’m resentful of being asked to do it for someone else. And you know what? I love what you did. This is what happens. Did you suffer as an adult? Yes, actually. Yes, okay, I see what you’re saying. We’re being asked to raise a generation of emotionally literate kids, and we were never taught it, a lot of us. And so, yes, it’s a struggle.
[VERONICA]
It’s a huge struggle. I don’t want to deal with the, I personally don’t want to deal with these emotions. My oldest is so much more obedient, my middle child it’s like, last night she was sharing something with us and all of a sudden, she just broke down in tears and it’s like, what the hell just happened right now? And she’s like, “I’m sorry, I just started my period.” And it’s like, that’s all right. My husband was like, and it was like, all right, we’re just going to keep our cool. Everybody keep their cool. But yes, it’s, and it was during a time where it was, there was a difference of opinion. There wasn’t an argument, but there was just a difference of opinion and it was, my husband went to provide clarity and he had to stop and kind of rewind and reword what he wanted to say, because I asked her, “Hey what’s going on? We’re just having a discussion.” I was like, “What do you think dad meant?”

And she’s like, “Well, dad thinks this and this and this.” And Willy was able to say, “No. No, no, no. Let me clear it up.” And then it went well but had that happened with my mom and dad, oh, hell no. “Are you talking back to me? Are you really talking,” slap in the face or get the hell out of my face? It would have been something like that. And I would’ve walked away feeling all kinds of confusion and not knowing how to process my emotions. And if I’m being honest, I would have just sucked it up and I would have stayed quiet. And I noticed that that played out in adulthood. When me and my husband would argue, I was expecting him to come back with that. And it was like, oh, I’m already ready. You can leave at any time, if you want to. And I would throw those.

Like, I would throw those things because I was already prepared. My childhood had prepared me to end a relationship. My childhood had prepared me to numb it out. Yes, exactly. There’s no way I would’ve known this. I know this is going to sound completely ridiculous, but there’s no way I would have known this had I not sat in front of thousands of patients. There’s no way I would have known this because I’m going to tell you right now, although school did an amazing job, I wouldn’t be where I’m at if I didn’t go through all of the schooling, but being across from somebody and having a real conversation, that’s when it taught me like, “Ooh, wait a minute. Yes, that’s happened to me too.”
[MAUREEN]
Yes. It is a gift, isn’t it? Like I say the same thing, working as a nurse, man, my patients taught me a lot. They taught me how to be empathetic.
[VERONICA]
Bingo.
[BREAK PROMO]
If your child is struggling with the thoughts of suicide and they need someone to talk to for support, the Lifeline Network is free and available 24/7 across the United States. Call them at +1 800-273-8255. If you are seeking a therapist, please contact us to schedule an appointment. We will pair you with the therapist that fits you and your family’s needs. You can reach us at +1 888-263-7124. We are serving those that live in California.
[VERONICA]
So I want to go ahead and go back to our children who are suffering from depression can also teach us so much by you parents asking the questions that Maureen just gave. “What’s this like for you. Take me through it. Help me understand.” Because in so many ways you, as a parent, even if you haven’t suffered from depression, even if you’ve never suffered from anxiety, I’m going to tell you you’ll be able to relate with them because somewhere along the line, somewhere in your life, you’ve probably felt that same way, defeated.
[MAUREEN]
Yes. And what does your therapist tell you to do when you feel like this? Because, I might say, “Well, yes, I felt like not getting out of bed in the morning. What did I do? I got out of bed, so, okay, but wait a minute, maybe that wasn’t the best. Maybe I did need to get out of bed and accept the fact that I was tired today, go a little easy on myself, expect maybe to be a little more raw and on edge than usual and just let it be.” There’s more to it than just get out of bed. What does your therapist tell you, you need to do right now? How can I help you with that? And I remember once we were, so one of our, our oldest son had borderline personality disorder. So we knew that he was very emotionally volatile.

We knew that when we got firm, with him, he would go into a spiral of shame and hopelessness and attempted suicide. And yet we needed to ask him to move out. We needed to encourage him to move on with his life. Like it wasn’t working for us having him in our home. And we were really worried about it and I remember going to a therapist and saying, “Okay, we need to have a tough conversation with him. And how do we frame this up to minimize this shame, [crosstalk] the hopelessness? How do we support him through this? We can’t just not do it, needs to happen. So how do we do this responsibly and compassionately?”

She gave us great advice. She walked us through how to frame up the conversation. She walked us through even setting up the conversation so that it wasn’t catching him off guard, that it was good timing, that he was aware that it was coming, all of that. And so I really am a firm believer in communicating with a therapist. I would let my kids know that too. Like I would say, “I’m talking to your therapist about how to best support you because I’m …” I’m not asking them to tell me, what did you say in the session and did they say anything about me? Like, I’m not asking any of that. I just want to be, I want, this is a team, sport. Like how do we support each other here in being well and I get my own help too?
[VERONICA]
Absolutely. I love that you mentioned notifying your son that it’s, I’m not talking about you. So one thing that I want to make sure parents know is when you do, I don’t know what this is like in Canada, but here in California, specifically, we can’t have conversations with parents about the progress or the regression of our clients, unless it’s if they’re a danger to themselves or others, or unless it falls in line with breaking confidentiality. However, I definitely encourage parents, if your kid is in therapy, I definitely encourage you request for a family meeting. I know with my clients, I see quite a good amount of kids, I’ll meet with the parents once a month because I want to make sure I’m teaching the parents the skills that I’m teaching their child so that we’re all on the same page.

If they have any questions, obviously I review it with my client first, “Hey what is off limits and what’s full range?” And the topics that I feel like we do need to discuss, even if they’re uncomfortable, even if the teenager isn’t necessarily ready, I make sure to encourage them, “Hey, this is why.” And I give them an explanation. “This is why it might be beneficial to all of us if you had this conversation. What are your thoughts? What are some of your hesitation with sharing this? And we have that dialogue prior to having the meeting with the parents. This not only establishes trust with my client, but it also helps them with realizing, “Wait a minute. I do have full charge of my care. And there is somebody that’s listening. There is an adult that’s modeling, active listening that’s not getting all emotional.” And they start to see that change in their parents.

I met with a client yesterday, and I literally, I mean, so the client that I was talking about that came up and said bullshit, I ended up seeing them after, because we just ended up meshing. Well, like, “Dude, I love your no BS attitude.” And it’s like, “Hey, I’m all about help. I’m here to help. I’m not here to sell you a car. Like I’m literally here to help you.” And we had a great relationship, but it reminded me of that, this parent, this family, sorry, I’m everywhere, this family reminded me of that gentleman and to see where they’re at right now. And it was who I was telling you about earlier, they had said, “Listen, yesterday was complete shitshow. I didn’t act accordingly, I didn’t practice any skills. I recognize that I didn’t do this. I had a conversation with my child and I was just freaking out. My husband was freaking out and had to do with social media and we just didn’t know what to do.”

And I asked her, I was like, “Well, that must’ve been really difficult tonight, considering you freaked out on your daughter, knowing that she’s suffering from depression. You okay.” And she’s like, “I couldn’t sleep. I felt so guilty because I wish I would have handled it differently and I didn’t. I was —“
[MAUREEN]
Tell me I didn’t ruin everything.
[VERONICA]
Yes. And it was like, I shit you not. I started crying and I was like, “You know what? I am so proud of you both. I am so proud of you both. Here’s why. You were able to identify okay, I didn’t have control of my emotions. You’re able to say that right now in front of your child, where before in the beginning it was like, nope, this is the way it is. And this is just just the way it’s going to go down. If she doesn’t like it, well, she’s going to have to suck it up.” To listen, I let my emotions take over. I was so scared. They were able to say all of that and look over to their child and say, “I’m so proud of you because you were able to hear me and you were able to give me that time.” And the child is just, they’re having this conversation as I do. I just step back and just let this happen because it’s amazing what happens when we’re able to talk about it.
[MAUREEN]
It almost brings tears to my eyes as you’re telling the story. Just so honest, so vulnerable and role modeling that to your kid. Like sometimes I don’t do it. I’m not super proud of myself. Sometimes I don’t do things as well as, you know the knowledge doesn’t transfer to behavior. Sometimes, and I can say, I’m sorry and try again. And I think that’s just like, we’re also human. And like, ugh, it breaks my heart, honestly, to hear, you know, I say the same thing when I’m teaching skills. If you can do this once you get a gold medal. If you could refrain from old behaviors, you got a silver. Like it’s such a progress, not perfection, this whole mantra of, and be kind to yourself and take a deep breath and say, “Man, I really screwed that up. Here’s what I wish I’d done.”
[VERONICA]
Yes, exactly.
[MAUREEN]
And the kids, like you say, the kids are like, “Oh, okay. So I’m allowed to screw up, admit it, try again?”
[VERONICA]
Yes. Cool. Leaving perfectionism out the window.
[MAUREEN]
Because you’re never going to hit it.
[VERONICA]
Ever. And this is a prime example. My parents are modeling that perfectionism isn’t the goal. Connection is the goal.
[MAUREEN]
Yes. And I mean, I wrote a book about co-dependence. I can still be really codependent. I just recognize it sooner, know when to ask for help, I know how to go back and fix it. Like, okay, but I mean I love to control and manage, save the day. All of the things and I tell people what to do. I mean, I love it. So yes. And I just wish it worked. [crosstalk.
[VERONICA]
It doesn’t. It kind of makes it worse.
[MAUREEN]
Yes.
[VERONICA]
So what would you say are some signs that your child is depressed? What did you see in your kids?
[MAUREEN]
I saw them lose interest in things that used to interest them. And this goes for depression and everything else. Like this I’m not well, let’s say. And I’ll use Ben as, because he was the clearest example. I mean, he was, he’s an athletic. You talk about ADHD, like this kid is always on the go. It’s 40 below and he’s outside playing, building a snow fort like getting all the kids in the neighborhood involved and like, go, go, go, go, go, loves football, loves rugby, loves soccer, gifted athlete, dismantles everything in the house. Like this is the way this kid is. And now I’m starting to see, oh, he quit football because he didn’t want to get up at five in the morning to practice. Okay, now he’s not involved in any school sports. That’s weird.

I’m getting a lot of absenteeism calls from the school, he’s looking unwell, he’s looking a little pale. He’s not participating even in family events and family is everything to him. That’s weird. So there’s just a change in behavior. There’s a loss of interest in things they used to be excited about engaging in and avoiding me well, and his dad. He was hiding. He’s hiding, he’s using at that time. So yes. Likes lots of avoidance and the change of behavior.
[VERONICA]
Yes. That lack of motivation is really, really big. The lack of motivation, you’ll see your child either sleep a whole bunch more, won’t take care of themselves hygiene wise. And it is not because they’re lazy. They’re going through something.
[MAUREEN]
But that’s what I though.
[VERONICA]
They are going through some, well yes. Most of us do think that because we don’t know.
[MAUREEN]
I thought I got a kid who is addicted to lying and he’s lazy. What am I going to do?
[VERONICA]
Yes, unmotivated.
[MAUREEN]
How do I get him motivated again? That’s what I worried about.
[VERONICA]
Yes. So, okay, we’re starting to see this. We’re starting to see these symptoms. Well, I just need to motivate my kid. How false is that?
[MAUREEN]
Well, if it was that easy, every kid would be motivated and out there achieving high things. If all it took was a parent pushing, easy. There’d be no problems, but that’s not what it is. It takes some, I think again, get curious. “You seem like you’re struggling. Here’s what I’m noticing. Here’s what I’m afraid of, here’s what I’m hoping. Can we talk about it? If you are struggling, you need to know that I’m here to help you, here to support you in finding the help that you need,” that kind of an answer. “Get off my back. Leave me alone. Every time I —
[VERONICA]
Yes, you’re going to see them.
[MAUREEN]
“Every time like, God, like, what’s your deal? I always have to be this, always have to be that.”
[VERONICA]
Yes. That goes along with the symptoms of depression.
[MAUREEN]
I’m just going to deflect.
[VERONICA]
Nonstop. Easily irritated, easily frustrated.
[MAUREEN]
Yes. Such a, “Mh-mh-mh. Leave me alone.”
[VERONICA]
Complete fatigue. Like all of those things. So what should we not do? I want to make sure we cover that? What should we not do?
[MAUREEN]
I think, I really did have a suck it up attitude when my kids were small. There’s a story I didn’t write in the book about my son breaking his arm and me telling him to suck it. Terrible story, but I really did think like, come on. This is how we build resilience, just by doing, doing. And I think that invalidating, dismissing is the whole suck it up attitude. When I was a kid, I wrote all in one. I’d do that myself. Like, oh my God, here we go. No one cares about what it was like when I was a kid except me. So be quiet. And I think ignoring that voice that something’s up, I think ignoring our own fears about what could be going on —
[VERONICA]
Yes, I was going to say that.
[MAUREEN]
Is the problem. Because that’s where I go in my head. I’m like, I would be, like that suck it up drive comes from, I might not be able to handle this. So suck it up.
[VERONICA]
And I might not be ready. I might not be ready for somebody to tell me that this is depression.
[MAUREEN]
I don’t have time.
[VERONICA]
No, I don’t have time for depression [crosstalk]
[MAUREEN]
I don’t have time for this, and I don’t have the money. Like, what is this? Like, this is just a huge thing that I don’t want to, I don’t want to look at this because it’s a lot. And I’m also like, if you go back to the stat, like what if I over coddled my kids? Like, what does that mean? Like what are they going to be? Where does, I go down the road 40 years and I’ve got a kid who can’t go to work. Like this whole, I mean, it’s all fear, fear, fear, fear. So go to, the opposite to fear, I always say is faith. And it doesn’t mean a faith in a god. What I mean is a faith that we’re going to be okay. A faith that every problem has a solution. The faith that your kid is living the life that they’re meant to live, your kids are faced with challenges that they’re meant to be faced with, and that they’re going to learn from them. We just, but we need to support them through them so that they can learn the most that they can from each thing. So acknowledging that fear. You have whatever it is about, what does this mean? Something’s wrong. I can’t lower the bar. So yes I would acknowledge that and try and have some faith and get curious.
[VERONICA]
Absolutely. Absolutely. No, it does. It’s very, very important. On my end to parent a depressed child empathy is so important. Developing this understanding, recognizing, wait a minute, something is very different. My son or daughter is irritable. They’re not eating. They’re excessively eating. They’re having this extreme behavior. They’re either not sleeping or they’re sleeping all day. That loss of interest in social activities, loss of interest in hobbies, loss of interest in even family gatherings. Like you’re starting to notice that there’s this change. And I’m going to tell you right now, we wait, it gets worse. It gets, I can’t tell you how many parents have come to me and I’ll ask the child with the parents there, “How long have you been having these symptoms?”

“It’s been a year.” Okay. Usually at that time, the kid’s already cutting. Are you experimenting with drugs? I’m just being honest, are you cutting, experimenting with drugs? Some form of self-harm, because what’s happening is your child has been in their own way, communicating to you, maybe non-verbally that something’s different and it’s been missed. So now I hate to say this, but it’s so true and it needs to be said. Now, guess what happens if your child no longer trust you. They start to slowly, slowly walk away from trusting you because something, I know something’s not right. And my kids or my parents are yelling at me because they want me to do my homework, they want me, but I really can’t and they’re not hearing me. So I’m going to pull away. I’m going to pull away and I’m going to try to talk to certain people or I’m going to completely shut down. And that’s when unfortunately, suicidal thoughts start to creep in.
[MAUREEN]
Well, yes. When you’re a kid and you feel this way, you just think you’re always going to feel this way.
[VERONICA]
You don’t know. Your brain isn’t fully developed. For problem solving, think outside of that.
[MAUREEN]
Yes. And you’re right. Like, so I need something and when I go to here, I don’t get it. So I’ll go over here and I’ll try, and good on the kids. I mean, this is resilience. I’m going to try drugs, I’m going to try alcohol, I’m going to try cutting. I’m going to try eating and purging. I’m going to try different ways to control and manage how I feel. And I remember the first time I heard a drug counselor say, like congratulate a kid on finding drugs, “Good for you, man. You found a way to get through it.” And I was like, “Holy, this is wild.” Because I’m like, this is tragic, but you’re actually saying good for you for finding a way to cope.
[VERONICA]
That’s it. So I want to make sure we’re all clear because I know listeners, especially mama bears, especially you mama bears, we’re not at all condoning the use of drugs. I don’t want that. I don’t want you to numb out. Maureen doesn’t want you to numb out.
[MAUREEN]
No
[VERONICA]
What she just said, and I’m going to say, I agree with you. I agree with that counselor is you figured out a way to cope. You recognize something is wrong and you need something else to help you manage it. So now that you’ve recognized that instead of using drugs, I am going to teach you how to manage those emotions. I’m going to give you tools so you don’t need drugs. So it helps the kid understand, “Oh, wait a minute. Yes, I went the unhealthy route. Bingo. I went the unhealthy route.” It makes so much more sense to them and they don’t feel shamed. They don’t feel like here’s another person telling me drugs are no good. Like no. Okay.
[MAUREEN]
You’re weak.
[VERONICA]
Bingo.
[MAUREEN]
You’re weak for using drugs. It’s just a reframe of that notion. It’s like this isn’t necessarily a failing. Let’s reframe this into something else that also helps me to understand that it is a strategy to deal with a problem. It is not the problem. And it may have become a problem, but it’s not the problem. The problem is over here with, I don’t know how to get through this without something to help me. And so yes, like what you’re saying, like teach. And so thanks for clarifying that. I do tend to throw things out when people are going —
[VERONICA]
No, I’m glad you did. The thing is though, you guys don’t know what you don’t know and Maureen it’s in your profession. You’ve seen it as a nurse. You’ve seen it as a consultant and with your own kids. I see this, I’m going to tell you right now, I see this every hour. I’d like to say I don’t, but right now teens are severely depressed. Everything, every coping skill that they’ve had; friends gone, school gone, they’re stuck in their house. And I’m not saying that that’s a bad thing, but I’m going to tell you right now, guess what? They’re watching you and your husband bicker, because you guys are, maybe don’t agree with your political views or all of these movements happening and the Black Lives Matter. Like there’s so many things going on that are very, very important. However, they are also very triggering and if you parents do not know how to handle your emotions, your kids are front row seats to all of it, all of it. And they don’t know how to handle this, because you’re —
[MAUREEN]
No. They are learning their coping skills from you and you’re not coping so hot. So yes. And man, that must be tough right now. Must be so tough.
[VERONICA]
It is.
[MAUREEN]
I was talking to someone about this the other day. Like if I had to homeschool my kids, I don’t know how people are doing it, honestly. Like it’d be Lion King for eight hours a day. Like that’s what we did. It was like, “Oh my God. I just —
[VERONICA]
Yes. Yes.
[MAUREEN]
There’s a reason why I’m not an elementary school teacher. So I don’t want to be an elementary school teacher.
[VERONICA]
Exactly.
[MAUREEN]
So yes. It’s a lot. It’s a lot. And I want to talk about the avoiding for a year as a parent. I’m sure you’ve heard the story about the frog in the pot of water, the frog and the boiling water. You can put a frog in water, that’s room temperature, and you could turn it on high and it builds heat so gradually that the frog will actually boil to death. It won’t jump out because it’s coming on so gradually. It doesn’t notice the change.
[VERONICA]
Yes. That’s a great analogy.
[MAUREEN]
And I think back to my own kids and it wasn’t like, it didn’t happen like one day he was playing soccer and rugby and taking things apart and fully engaged with family and the next day he was dirty and wearing the same clothes for a week and disappearing for days at a time and sleeping for days at a time. That would have been like, “Oh, what happened?” It was a little bit at a time, little bit at a time and you get a little bit used to it and you’re like “Huh, maybe he doesn’t, I guess he just likes to, all teenagers need their sleep. I guess they don’t like to get up at five in the morning. He’s decided that that’s not worth it for him, I guess. Oh, okay. Well, he does like to party a lot.” Well, what teenager doesn’t? Like it’s this back and forth, like all the time.

And in there again, what I mentioned earlier, the fear of what if it’s something that I can’t handle? Like I couldn’t even, when we got to the point where it was undeniable, like when I said it out loud, he’s doing this, he’s doing this, he’s doing this, he’s doing this. And I didn’t say it out loud often. I was on a conversation with my brother. I said, “He’s doing this.” And my brother said, “Man, this does not sound good.” And I’m like, “Whoa, you’re right. Like it, when I say it all out and loud, it doesn’t sound good, but I’m so scared of the word addiction.” I can’t even put it together with —
[VERONICA]
No. Not my kid.
[MAUREEN]
Like that denial is a protective thing. And like what you did, like, I couldn’t say, I’m like, I don’t think, I’m on the phone. I don’t know if he’s an addict though. I don’t know if he’s an addict. I don’t know if I can call him an addict because, I mean, what does that say about like? I just, and the therapist that we were talking with said, “Forget about trying to label it.”
[VERONICA]
Yes. Take that out.
[MAUREEN]
How’s he doing?
[VERONICA]
Yes. And that’s what a good therapist will do. So I want to speak to that as well as, diagnosis being, we feel like diagnoses are being thrown everywhere. You got to think about back in the day. I’m not going to make myself sound old, but yes, back in the day, a lot of things, we weren’t, our parents, my parents weren’t open about certain things. My dad struggled with addiction. But if, I now being a therapist and looking at my dad’s full history, my dad struggled from depression. Nobody said that. I mean, and I’m going to tell you right now, if any of my dad’s sisters heard me say that, “Oh no, he didn’t. How dare you say that?” But I’m going to say it because I’m his daughter. So I can say it. And I’m a therapist, so boom.

But yes, if I look at it, it’s like, my dad’s struggled with depression. And maybe my dad even suffered from anxiety, but that was undiagnosed. And so he went to drugs, because he had to cope. Some way he had to cope. And parents, the reason why we’re doing this episode is because this is a huge thing right now. Therapists aren’t looking to diagnose everybody. Don’t get me wrong. Just like any position, there are maybe not so great therapists out there. However, you get a really good therapist. They’re not worried about the diagnosis.
[MAUREEN]
No.
[VERONICA]
They will mention the diagnosis. If the child is like, “I don’t know what the hell is wrong with me. I feel like I’m going crazy.” “It sounds like you’re suffering from depression. Right away, light bulb moment. “Wait a minute. Is that what this is?” “Yes, girl. You’ve been at war with depression. I’m so proud of you. I’m so proud of you for opening up. I am so proud of you for speaking up to your parents and telling them something’s not right, because you felt it. And in addition to that, I’m proud of you for sitting right across from me and being right here with me. I am.”
[MAUREEN]
Takes a lot of work.
[VERONICA]
Hell yes, it takes so much work and I acknowledge that. And then right away you see this change in the child, like, wait a minute. I’m not going to be like this for the rest of my life? You mean there’s a way to address this and change it. So I’m this isn’t my life sentence? Hell yes. I want to add one more thing. I want to make sure I say this and I know right now I’m are already going to get a bunch of shift for this, but I’m going to say it because it needs to be said. If you feel like your child is suicidal, and I know having the thought about your kid suffering from depression is already too much, I get that. If you’re starting to notice things aren’t right, you’re starting to notice that your child might even mention something along the lines of, “Wouldn’t be a big deal if I didn’t wake up tomorrow?”
[MAUREEN]
“Wish I’d never been born.”
[VERONICA]
“I wish I’d never been beautiful. Wish I’d never been born.” I want to arm you with this knowledge that is so important. It is very, very crucial that you ask your child. Yes, I’m saying you ask. You ask your child, “Are you suicidal?” Because if you ask them, they will tell you and it might not be something want to hear, but I’d rather hear my child tell me they’re suicidal versus waking up to them dead. That’s the reality of this.
[MAUREEN]
Do you have visions of hurting yourself. Do you have thoughts of hurting yourself?
[VERONICA]
Yes. Yes. Yes. All of that is very, very important to ask right off the bat because I’m going to tell you right now, you asking that question isn’t going to make them think of suicide. They’re already probably thinking about it. They’re already asking their friends who probably are cutting and thinking about the same thing. So would you rather them get educated from a 13-year-old or from a professional? My money’s on the damn professional.
[MAUREEN]
It’s true. It’s such a good point. And thank you for bringing that up too. You know, we need to know what to do if we’re worried. If there’s a little voice in our head that says something’s not right, they’re honest, shine a light on it. Talk about it. Like I love what you said about, you’re not going to make them go, “Oh, I hadn’t thought of suicide. Maybe I should start thinking about that.” Because I mean, if you say to me, like, I think about times when I’ve had trouble getting out of bed and I just want to, like, I don’t want to talk to anybody today. I just, whoa, self-care day. I’m feeling really raw. Ooh. If you said to me, “Well, are you thinking about hurting yourself?” I wouldn’t go, “Oh, that’s a good idea.”
[VERONICA]
Oh, thank you. Thank you for —
[MAUREEN]
I’d say, I would quite honestly say, “No, honestly, that is not even on my radar. I just need time to myself. I need, I just, you know what my biggest fear is? That I’m lazy. I’m worried that I’m lazy and I’ve given into easy. I need help, you know, reframing that, so you’re not going to make me think about hurting myself. So that’s a good point.
[VERONICA]
I did a talk for parents and the next day after that talk, one of the parents had to ask me if they can have a conversation with me. I was like, “Yes, sure. Of course.” And they came up to me and they said, “Thank you so much for arming me with that knowledge. I asked my daughter that night, “Have you ever thought about committing suicide?” She said yes. And she handed me a letter. She was going to commit, she was going to act on it that night. And she’s like, my daughter just cried to me and just shared with me what this was like, how painful it was, and she just opened up and was so thankful that I had asked that question and —
[MAUREEN]
Good for you.
[VERONICA]
It was like, I hugged the mother and I was like, “That’s amazing.”
[MAUREEN]
Good for them.
[VERONICA]
Hell yes. That is amazing.
[MAUREEN]
Great question, because I mean, we’re all worried about unearthing something we can’t deal with. Like, “So what do I do if my kid says yes? Like what do I do? I don’t even want to ask because if they say yes. Well that does like, is it lights and sirens? Like what do I do?
[VERONICA]
Great question. So your kid is suicidal. There is a suicide hotline, I will make sure I add it in our show notes. There is also a hotline where you can, your child can text all, of it for free. In addition to that, you can go to the nearest hospital. I advise you if your daughter or your son has a plan and intent to commit suicide, you take them immediately to the emergency room, let them know your daughter is a threat to herself. There are staff there that will help you. Unfortunately, they go through this more times than they’d probably like to admit. They will take care of her. She’s not going to the nuthouse. She’s not going crazy. She will be provided with a psychiatrist. She will be provided with a therapist. She will be provided all of that in a residential treatment center, which is very, very important.

I mean to tell you right now, moms and dads, if you’re listening, you’re great. You are absolutely amazing as a parent and you are not trained in this field. You’re not trained. If you have a therapist, if your child has a therapist contact the therapist. The therapist will either set up an appointment immediately if they can, or they will also walk you through steps and more than likely, they’re going to tell you the same thing I just did, “Take her to emergency room.”
[MAUREEN]
Yes. Yup, yup, yup, yup, yup. Yup. Yes, and I mean I dig a little deeper, but that’s because I have training in that. So if, don’t be surprised here in Canada, if you do all of that and you get to the emergency department and you spend five hours there and they get assessed and you’re sent home because —
[VERONICA]
I’m glad you brought that up, they might not be an imminent threat. They may not need to be in a residential program to stay safe while they get treatment. It might’ve been a fleeting thought that they’ve had, but they have no plan and it’s certainly not imminent. They’re not at risk of hurting themselves or others in the next 24 hours and they’re quite compliant, honest, open and made agreement on a safety plan. So not the end of the world, right?
[VERONICA]
No. And that’s why it’s there. The nurse, the doctor will then assess them, you know, are they a threat to themselves? Because if they are, if they’re really, really thinking about committing suicide and there’s no way out, yes, they’ll go that residential. If they aren’t, they’ll be provided more than likely medication and they’ll also be provided with resources on therapists in the local area or even programs. I’m so glad you said that depending on the level of care that’s required.
[MAUREEN]
Yes.
[VERONICA]
Maureen kicked ass today. Thank you so much.
[MAUREEN]
Oh, thank you. You’re so good at what you do. Wish I had you as a therapist or my kids, because of course we don’t live in California, but man, you are a breath of fresh air. I love what everything you say about how you incorporate families and education and I just, I’m a big fan. So thank you very, very much for everything that you’re doing.
[VERONICA]
Thank you. Well, thank you for being vulnerable and opening up and creating this great, great resource for families who don’t know what to do and your story with your children and everything that your family has endured. And like I mentioned, in the last episode, I mean to listen to your daughter and for her to be an advocate now for other teens, it’s just, it’s a true reflection of the work that you have all done and just the power of a mother’s love.
[MAUREEN]
Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Man, you can do anything.
[VERONICA]
Yes, we can. Thank you so much. Absolutely. All right, girl. Well, how do we find you? I want to make sure I say that again.
[MAUREEN]
Okay. Well, I’m easy to find actually, Maureentowns.com. So M A U R E N T O W N S.com. And I’ll have a consult with anyone and everyone. So you can, there’s about a million buttons on that site that you can just click to book a consult in my calendar, and I’m thrilled to chat with you. And if what I offer is not the right fit because of either price or it just isn’t what you need, I will always have some other ideas for you. And I’m pretty passionate about not recommending my course unless I think it is the perfect thing for you. I’m not interested in wasting anybody’s time. So it’s not a sales call. It really is a consult. How can I help you? That’s what it’s about.
[VERONICA]
You guys, make sure you reach out to her. She knows her stuff. She really knows her stuff for us to have this type of conversation. Not a lot of people, not a lot of professionals are able to have it. And so she knows her stuff. I absolutely love you Maureen.
[MAUREEN]
Thank you.
[VERONICA]
Many women lose their own identity in the shadow of being a mom and a wife. We are a community of women who support each other. We leave perfectionism behind to become empowered and unapologetic. I want to personally invite you to join our girl gang. It’s a free Facebook community for women just like you. Go to www.facebook.com/groups/empoweredandunapologetic. See you there.

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Empowered and Unapologetic is part of the Practice of the Practice podcast network, a family of podcasts that changes the world. To hear other podcasts like the Bomb Mom podcast, Beta Male Revolution or Imperfect Thriving, go to practiceofthepractice.com/network.

This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, Practice of the Practice, or the guests are providing legal, mental health, or other professional information. If you need a professional, you should find one.