[SANJUANA SAENZ]
And it’s really a puzzle because, well, I can separate this part of my life. And then with friends we’re at this way, and then with our family, it’s this way and then with extended family, it’s this way, but we’re keeping our marriage together. We’re super happy and excited to like be with people, but amongst ourselves, in our relationship, there’s so much to look into it and work on to really be in that zone where we are one.
[VERONICA CISNEROS]
Hey girl, imagine a life where you feel supported, connected and understood. I get it. Being a mom is hard, especially when you’re spinning so many plates. We exhaust ourselves trying to create the perfect life for our family. You deserve to enjoy your family without the stress perfectionism brings. On this podcast, I provide practical and relatable life experiences. I teach women quick and easy to use strategies to help them reclaim their identity. Re-ignite their marriage and enjoy their children. If you’re ready to be challenged, then pull up a chair, grab a pen and paper because it’s about to go down. I’m Veronica Cisneros, a licensed marriage and family therapist and this is the Empowered and. Unapologetic podcast.
[SANJUANA]
Welcome to Empowered and Unapologetic. I’m your host, Veronica Cisneros. We’re going to, once again, put a little bit of a spin on things. I invited my neighbor because her and I were in my kitchen and we’re just having a conversation and she had asked me something that was so, I thought it was just so important that I shared with you guys. And so I asked her if she would be open to having this conversation just between us girls and you guys too, and invite the whole world. And luckily she said yes, so I’m super excited to have her on. And like I said, we’re going to put a little twist on things where she’s going to start this episode, asking a question. Sanjuana, thank you so much for being on. I’m literally ripping you from your family because it’s like nine o’clock at night and I know your babies are asleep. Meanwhile, my babies are still up and my husband he’s watching the Falcon, something. He said the Mexican Falcon’s going to come upstairs in a minute. So let’s hope he doesn’t interrupt.
[SANJUANA]
It’s absolutely fine. Thank you for having me.
[VERONICA]
So you asked me a very, very powerful question. Can you start us with that?
[SANJUANA]
So, yes, I was just curious as to how it is that we start this acknowledgement? We’re in denial but we don’t even know we’re in denial of the issues that we have. So how do we start acknowledging that there is an issue, that there is something that we need to get worked on?
[VERONICA]
That’s a great question. Even now, when you ask me that, I just, I think of where I was at in life so many years ago that I didn’t know. So if you would have asked me, “Hey, are you happy?” I would have said, “Absolutely. A hundred percent. I have the husband, I have the kids, I have the dog. What’s not to be happy about?” However, I was happy or so I thought I was happy, but I was also really, really stressed out. I was really, really frustrated, but I was never allowed to touch on that. Like, okay, “So what? You’re tired, like, suck it up because so is every other mom, and so is your husband. Everybody’s tired.” But it wasn’t until I started realizing, wait a minute, I really don’t want to do this anymore. And wasn’t that I wanted to leave my husband, but it was like, I just, I’m waking up to Groundhog’s day, every day. I remember telling Willie, “When the hell are you going to just make a freaking decision? Like, I don’t care what the hell it is. I don’t care if it’s the way our kids’ hair is brushed. Like just make a freaking decision or whatever. What do you want to eat tonight?” I didn’t want to make any more decisions. And I noticed that our arguments started to increase and it got to a point where it was like, again, I wasn’t going to leave him. Our relationship wasn’t at risk, but it was just like, “Damn, you and I could be great roommates. Like I could just say tag, you’re it.”

It takes me back to like, I know that you guys got married really young. And when I got married, I was older. I was almost 30 and my husband was already 30. And I just sort of said, “Well, you know what? Yes, let’s do it.” But even then just getting used to that married life was difficult because they say you can’t teach an old dog new tricks. And he was older and set in his ways and I was already set in my ways and I know my family even warned him like, “Oh watch out with her. She’s feisty.” And his sisters warned me. I was like, how hard can it be? I’m thinking like, “He seems like a nice enough person.” But very early on, I just thought it was just something that we just had to get used to each other, you know?
[VERONICA]
Yes. And that wasn’t even a red flag. Like something that we have to get used to?
[SANJUANA]
No, not at all. Like everybody comes in with their own different personalities and you just complete each other. That’s the dream. So I complimented him and he complimented me because I was not assertive, still not, but we’re working on it. But he was just, he’s still my polar opposite. Like he’s helped me in so many ways and I’ve helped him in so many ways but at the same time together as a married couple, we still have a lot to learn from each other and about each other. So being young, you give yourself a little bit of, I guess, what do you call that, grace?
[VERONICA]
Yes.
[SANJUANA]
To where, okay, this is just a phase. We don’t have kids yet, so there are a lot of stressors as a newly married couple and his job and I’m new at my job and the city’s different and he travels a lot. And so all these excuses, I guess you would say.
[VERONICA]
Yes, yes.
[SANJUANA]
And they never stopped because it was one move and then the next, and then the pregnancy and then a move. And it was just every time I thought, well, this is a good phase, it ended up being like, “Wait a minute. We’re not out of that, comfortable, uncomfortable zone.” Like we were still vacillating through like each other’s personalities and opinions and even political affiliations, you know?
[VERONICA]
Yes.
[SANJUANA]
So it’s a work in progress, but you never really understand how easy it can get to just be out of control, how easy that you can make that right or left turn. It was just all of a sudden you’re there and you’re like, “How did we get here?”
[VERONICA]
Yes, yes. So why for you, was it important that you were no longer, you used the word naive? Like when for you did it switch? You and I talked about that, like you were saying, it didn’t happen like just, oh, Veronica said something, Veronica it was something you said and I was like, “Oh, it’s just clicked.” It was more gradual.
[SANJUANA]
Yes, and having conversations with you, and I’m lucky because I have access to you.
[VERONICA]
No bragging, no bragging.
[SANJUANA]
But it was just in conversation. Sometimes he would say something and I’m like, “Oh, that’s totally not applicable to me.” Or I’m dealing with a situation XYZ and I’m like, “Oh, that’s sad,” but I never really internalized it or even took it personally. It was just like, wow, that happens. People need therapy. And the words that you started using, I was like, oh, like resentment, for example, that’s not, I don’t know what that is. Like what does that even mean? I mean, I know the word, but to really apply it to myself, I didn’t realize that it was something that was an issue in my life. I don’t know if that happens to everyone, but there are certain things that you just kind of pile up.

And I’ve heard you talk and I’ve heard examples and then I just started opening my eyes to the situation that I was in. And I say, “Wait a minute, I’m in there. This applies to me.” And then obviously I asked you questions. I got curious and then now it was like the Pandora box is over. Yes, we’re going there now. But yes, it’s more of little by little, you start kind of getting details and putting the picture together. And it’s really a puzzle because, well, I can separate this part of my life and then with friends we’re at this way, and then with our family, it’s this way and then with extended family, it’s this way, but we’re keeping our marriage together. We’re super happy and excited to like be with people, but amongst ourselves, in our relationship, there’s so much to look into it and work on to really be in that zone where we are one. We’re unified in this, we’re not quick to anger and we’re compassionate with each other. You lose it because there are so many other things to take care of and responsibilities that you have. And you know, that the world is still going on while you’re having this issue. You can’t just focus on this issue. So you just kind of brush it aside and I’m great at that. So, I just, you know, we’ll take care of it when we take care of it. Oh, you’re traveling? Great. One more week that we don’t have to take care of it and so on —
[VERONICA]
And in five years later, it’s like, “Oh, shit we still haven’t taken care of it.”
[SANJUANA]
Yes. Yes.
[VERONICA]
I remember, so as you were talking right now, I remember, I don’t know if you’ve watched Sex and the City, like one of the, okay, oh my bad. Girl, we totally need to. I’m almost like leaning on stopping this and watching that down, both of the movies. Ladies, we all know Sex and the City, but, so there’s this part in the movie and you know, Charlotte, she’s in the kitchen, she’s baking, she’s all done up and she’s on the phone trying to solve an issue. But her kids are constantly calling for and calling for and calling for her and she’s had a bunch of stress, just a whole bunch of stressors with regards to her husband, how she feels about him and the kids are still like mom, mom, mom and she’s trying to concentrate on the phone because she really doesn’t talk to her friends that often.

And then her daughter gets so upset because she’s not, her mother is not paying attention to her that she literally smacked her mom’s butt with red dye. And the mom immediately looks at the daughter and just screams, gets off the phone and goes straight into the pantry and just, there’s this complete meltdown, complete meltdown and she’s crying. And it has nothing to do with the skirt being ruined. It had everything to do with like, “How the frick did I get here? How am I now in this place where I can’t even have a conversation with my friends that I rarely see, I don’t know what the hell is going on with my husband, because I can’t even talk to him about anything because he’s either so damn sensitive where he goes into rage or excuse me, he completely shuts down.”

So it’s like, I just feel trapped. I can’t freaking talk to anybody. I can’t share with my friends that this is what’s going on because what would they think of him? And so those right there, those are the moments which happened more often than we believe or we’d like to admit. That’s even better, we’d like to admit, but it’s those moments. It’s not necessarily that you’re on the verge of divorce, but it’s like, what if we can make those moments less? Like, what if, don’t get me wrong. As a mom, yes, you’re going to probably have one of those losing it moments. We all are. I mean, I do and I teach parenting, you know what I mean? Like I will admit that, but it’s like, what if we were able to communicate our frustrations? What if we were able to actually connect with our husbands and our children? And that’s what my main goal has always been, is like, I’ve been able to figure out this key, like this secret. I’ve never called it a secret before, but I’ve been able to figure it out and it’s like, “Let me teach you.” But the minute I get to talking to women, it’s like, “Oh, well, yes, that happens but I mean, it doesn’t happen all the time.”
[SANJUANA]
No, he’s probably stressed out from work or —
[VERONICA]
Yes. Yes.
[SANJUANA]
I’ve had, it was a really important project that I was doing. My son was behind or there’s a family death or, it’s always something going on aside from what’s really going on. I don’t know. I don’t think that there’s like a real problem. And I can’t say, “Oh my husband abuses drugs or my husband is an alcoholic.” I can’t say that that is a problem. So it can’t be that bad and we don’t realize that it doesn’t have to be that bad.
[VERONICA]
Ah-ah, because it’s not bad where there’s an addiction happening. It’s not bad where there’s domestic violence happening or your husband’s stepping outside of the marriage. It’s not that bad. And what’s actually happening, that’s building over time, that resentment that’s thickening more and more because you’re not asking for help, you’re taking on everything, you have nobody to communicate with. Well, you do, but you’re not, you don’t know how [crosstalk] You don’t know how to set boundaries —
[SANJUANA]
Because you got it under control.
[VERONICA]
Bingo.
[SANJUANA]
There’s nothing going on.
[VERONICA]
So guess what ends up happening? You end up struggling with severe depression, severe anxiety and your husband is either now cheating on your ass or just completely checked out of the relationship because, “I’m married to my wife but every time I’m around her, she’s a nag.” And I’ve been on both ends. So being, working as a clinician has provided me with this opportunity and this curse, let’s just say. It’s provided me with opportunities to actually listen to your husbands. I’m listening to your husbands and I say your husband’s because every single husband that comes in, I swear to you, it’s like somebody gave them a whole script before coming in and they’re all following it. Every single one of them, firefighters, police officers, executives, salesmen. Like it doesn’t matter what type of employment they’re in. They’re all falling under the same pattern. And what that pattern is, is, “I would rather stay at work than be around my family.” And when they say it at first, they’re like, “Oh shit. I just told a woman this. She’s going to judge me.”

But I don’t. It’s like, “Tell me more. Yes, I hear you. Why is that the minute you get home is she nagging you? The minute this, is this happening? Give me more details as to what’s going on.” And then once they realize that they can say anything and there’s zero judgment, Pandora’s box is open and they literally open up. And like nine times out of 10, what a husband will say is, and ladies, I want you to listen to this and I want you to grab your man and ask him this, nine times out of 10 what a husband will say is, “I’m not invited. Like, it feels like I have to be invited to be with her and the kids. She loves the kids more than me. It’s easier for her to spend time with the kids than me and I’m stuck in this position where if I discipline them, she gets pissed off at me. If I love them, I’m not playing with them correctly. If I have a conversation with them, why didn’t I ask them the right questions? So why am I even here? I love my family, I love my wife, but she reminds me every day, verbally or physically that I’m this emotionless individual and she just can’t connect with me. But where I can connect is work. So I will spend so many more hours at work than in my home because I’m not welcome there.”
[SANJUANA]
Absolutely. Absolutely. I am. And he’s very clear about saying that, whenever I’ve kind of, I’m having a lot more fun with the children. You know, I’m doing a lot more things with them. I go out with them and they have no choice. Obviously I’m their mom. I make them do it. But he sometimes has that exact phrase, “I should just stick to what I know, go back to work, and you guys spend the money,” sort of like.
[VERONICA]
Yes. So on your end, what are you hearing him say when he says that?
[SANJUANA]
That he just doesn’t, he he’d rather just not be a part of it.
[VERONICA]
Yes. And that, — go ahead.
[SANJUANA]
At the same time, it’s like, “Well fine. If that’s where you’re going, then I’ll continue doing fun stuff with the kids and not having you go because you know what, every time you go, you kind of are a party pooper.” And I hate saying that because I love having him in the kids. They absolutely enjoy him being there, present. But nine times out of 10 something doesn’t go according to plan. I’m not a planner. I’m not and he is. And so that in and of itself is already tension. So when we go on a road trip or to the beach, and there’s no parking, I pay the $20 to park. He would never pay the $20 park. He would just sit there for another 30, 45 minutes until somebody leaves. And I mean, as much as I appreciate it, because he’s a good steward of our money, I just want to go to the beach. So I pay the $20. It’s probably terrible. But that’s where my heart is like, this is, I’m not enjoying sitting in the street waiting for a parking spot. So in order for us to get this fun started, let’s just pay the $20.
[VERONICA]
Yes. So what pressure does that put on you when you notice that there’s no parking, he’s not going to pay the $20. What does this look like on your end?
[SANJUANA]
Well, now I got to sit there and entertain the kids and make sure that everybody’s happy. And now I feel guilty because I planned this beach trip and dang it, you know, for some reason I didn’t put enough snacks for us to sit 30 minutes in the car. And I just I’m at a loss because now it’s not fun anymore. You know, it was supposed to be a fun trip and it’s not. Or when we do go out and it’s a beach trip, for example, if I don’t have the plan for us to where we’re going to eat, like that’s on me because we’ve never been to this area and now I got to like, look really fast and, “Oh, he likes this kind of food. Let’s go there because he likes the kind of food.” So just kind of like, I want to appease everyone and then I feel like if I get it wrong, I’m going to ruin the trip for everyone.
[VERONICA]
Yes. So essentially what you’re doing is, these are the reasons why we can’t anger the bear, we can’t poke the bear. So I have to make sure I have X, Y, and Z, our A through Z already prepared because you’re a bear. Like, I don’t know if I’ve told you that, but you are a bear. And so I’m going to have everything done and if I don’t have everything done then I see this is why boys, is why dad’s not invited. This is why dad’s not invited. So guess, so you guys are both on the same team. You guys are both wanting to go to the beach, you guys are both, he wants to spend time with his family, but he doesn’t know how, and he doesn’t know how, because he doesn’t have your mindset. And so what you’re essentially communicating to him is you didn’t do it right, you’re not getting it.

So maybe we should just leave because we have so much more fun when you’re not involved. He already knows that. And the reason why he already knows that is because of what you said right now, I’m trying to check everything off versus just letting it happen. So like, let’s say, if you and I went to the beach, would you do any of that?
[SANJUANA]
No.
[VERONICA]
Hell no. We would just go. If you were to do that, I’d be like, “What the fuck? Like no girl. Hey, I’m sure.” Like it would just feel like there’s, because that expectation has already, you’ve placed that expectation on you now it feels like, “Well, damn I didn’t even bring snacks. I thought we were just going to eat when we got there.” You know what I mean? And, “I’m sure there’s a groceries. I’m sure there’s a bearings or sprouts or Trader Joe’s somewhere. I mean, we could just get the kids’ snacks there.” That would be my thinking, but it would be already this heightened level of intimidation.
[SANJUANA]
I see.
[VERONICA]
Do you see what I mean?
[BREAK PROMO]
Ladies, it’s time for a masterclass and I want to personally invite you. This is a free class and I’m offering it live on three different days to accommodate everyone’s schedule. I just don’t want anyone to miss out on this amazing offer. I see a lot of women get stuck in this loophole of attempting to be everything to everyone and spin all of these plates. Most of them are left feeling resentful, overwhelmed, and frustrated. They know they want something better, but they just don’t know how to get it, or even what it is. So I’m hosting a masterclass for women, just like you. In this masterclass, you’ll learn how to balance your own needs and family responsibilities without the guilt, how to shift your mindset so you’re not so reactive, and how to check in and connect with your husband. If you’re ready for change, then join me in my masterclass, where I teach you how to increase connection and conversations with your husband. Go to www.empoweredandunapologetic.com/masterclass. Looking forward to seeing you there.
[VERONICA]
And so what I’ll ask men to do is I’ll ask men to go out and take a step back, and I’ll ask them, “How does it benefit you to disconnect from your family? What are the benefits? And I also want to know, what is it costing you when you disconnect from the family?” And each time the benefits are, “My wife’s not yelling at me. She’s not telling me I’m a disappointment. And I get to go out and watch TV or I get to work longer or whatever.” Like, because that’s just automatically accepted. Now we go into the consequences. It’s, “I have to watch my wife play with my kids and feel alone and try to figure out something to do, because that’s just a reminder. So I have to go back to work because I haven’t earned it.” I can’t tell you how many times men have told me this. “I haven’t earned it. So I have to work longer, I have to work harder. I haven’t earned it and so until I earn it, I have to go back to work.” And so that’s their own. Your self-sabotage is compromising yourself. Their self sabotage is also compromising themselves for the family. But notice how both of you guys are doing the exact same thing. It’s just done completely different, but nobody’s fricking talking about it.
[SANJUANA]
We don’t realize that it’s an issue. Like honestly, if I asked him right now, “Hey, do you feel like I have to invite you?” He will be like, “No, I don’t know. I don’t know what he would say.”
[VERONICA]
I would, you know what, ask him, “When it comes to me and the boys, do you feel like you’re just automatically invite, like you’re part of the team, you’re part of the fun?”
[SANJUANA]
Well, that’s hands down he’s going to say no.
[VERONICA]
Why?
[SANJUANA]
Because we just have a different way of, our relationship is just different with the boys. I feel —
[VERONICA]
I would disagree?
[SANJUANA]
Really.
[VERONICA]
I mean, don’t get me wrong. I agree with the way you guys treat them and the way you guys interact with them is different. Yes, but I don’t think like if we peel back all of those layers at the core, I think you guys have the same relationship. And only because I’ve watched you guys. Like Adrian, the way he is with his boys, like he is very attentive to them. However, how many times do you override him?
[SANJUANA]
Oh, almost all the time, because I feel like I know better.
[VERONICA]
No, no, that’s that’s okay.
[SANJUANA]
I feel like I know my kids better. I feel like I know their needs better. I’m around them all the time and you know, he’s traveling, he’s working, he’s the provider and that’s my job, to know them, to understand where they’re coming from. Like even before they have the need, like they just come into the kitchen looking lost and I know what they need.
[VERONICA]
Listen to what you’re saying though. You know what they need, but have you provided your husband with the opportunity to also know what they need? Or have you been like, “A student, I got it first.”
[SANJUANA]
This doesn’t even, it’s not even something that we mentioned because ever since the babies, the boys were babies, ever since then, like I’ve always done it. I’ve always known how to do it. I don’t know. It was instinctual for me. I’ve always just known what they’ve needed and when he was changing a diaper, I’m like, “Oh, well I usually do it this way.” Or the milk, “No, that’s too long of a time that you warmed it.” Or when he would get something right, because, volume of milk change, for example. It was ridiculous, but I’m like, “Oh, all right, well, thanks.” You know, never really gave him any credit for it, because I was like, oh, I didn’t like that. You know, I should have known that, just little things that are now like. Well, you got it.
[VERONICA]
Yes.
[SANJUANA]
You got it. You can do it. The boys are hungry. We’ll feed them. I don’t know what they like.
[VERONICA]
I’m not going to get the right level though.
[SANJUANA]
is this for this one or is this for the other one? And I’m in shock because it’s obvious different as to how the boys eat and the amount of food. And I’m like really? And he’s like wanting to put something on there and the boys are, “I don’t like that.” And he’s already starting to feel like, “I don’t know what you guys like. You guys are so picky.”
[VERONICA]
Listen to what you just said though. I don’t know what you guys like. I’m your dad. I don’t know what you like. So just, if you can, if you can go ahead and take like, just step into Adrian shoes, imagine being a father, absolutely loving and adoring and working your ass off for your family to provide and then having to admit, “I don’t know what you like.” How easily frustrated would you be?
Speaker 4:
Very much.
[VERONICA]
I’d be. I’d feel so much shame. “Well, why don’t I know what my kids like? Well, because my wife doesn’t let me.”
[SANJUANA]
I think he just blames the kid because they’re the ones that complain.
[VERONICA]
Well, he has to blame somebody. He’s going to blame somebody. I mean, don’t get me wrong. That’s not healthy, but he’s going to blame somebody, but why? Why is he going to blame somebody? So let me go on and go there for a minute. Guys will go ahead and go straight to blame because they don’t understand the emotion. One plus one equals two. There’s no other way around it. And so that is something they can easily problem-solve, they can easily rationalize. Women aren’t like that. We go for like one plus one could be two, but it could also be maybe two in this way. But like, what are we adding? Are we adding like years, because there’s like 12 months in a year? We take it all kinds of freaking places. We totally dissect it. And, I totally lost where I was going.
[SANJUANA]
Guys going to blame.
[VERONICA]
Yes, sorry. I was like, how is that going to be 12 running or two Veronica? Whatever, you guys know what I mean? We got to have our life together. All right. But the thing is like, you already orchestrated it a certain way without allowing anything to penetrate it, like anything else to come into it. And so Adrian’s already set for failure without even knowing without even like, without even being given a chance. And then we get off at them because it’s like, “Well, when the hell are you going to help me?” Never because you don’t. So one thing that you and I have been working on is being able to kind of step back and allow it to happen. What’s that process been like for you?
[SANJUANA]
It’s tough because I feel like I’m a control freak. I know the times and I know the routines and everything’s running like on a very well coordinated clock and things just get done. If it’s the laundry at the same time, the dishes is the same time. I just take a break for a diaper change and then, “Oh, someone needs something upstairs.” Or my computer’s like, you know, I got it. I can do this and then he comes out of the office and it throws the baby, or the baby wants da-da. And so he runs, but he’s only out here for like, just to get a little more coffee and then he goes back into the office but the baby’s already like following him back to the office and he can’t, he’s on a call, but I’m like, “Dang, why would you have to come out?”

And then the baby’s like knocking on the door. So there I go, I take the baby, I go for a walk for a good 20, 30 minutes, and then I come back and someone’s been in the kitchen. There’s crumbs on the floor, the sink is stopped up, the laundry, the dryer probably went off already and I wasn’t there to take care of it, one of the kids, they got knocked out of a Zoom call. And I have to like put out little fires here and there and now I have to feed the baby, lunch. And so it’s okay, I can do this, I got this, I got this. And he’s still on a call. So then he comes back out for lunch, maybe. If he doesn’t his lunches there. I mean like everything is ready to go and then he doesn’t come out.

So I’m, “I’ll just leave it here for you.” And I put the baby down and sometimes I go and take the boys to school. I come back, the food’s still there and so I have a quiet time of 20, 30 minutes. So I read or I’m doing, for stuff. It’s a very tight like ship, you know? And when he comes out, every time I feel like I just scold him because he’s like ruining that little cycle of, not craziness, but cycle of like, “I got it covered. But every time you come out, it’s sort of like, you distract me from that,” which is terrible to say, but it is a distraction to what I’ve got under control. So it’s a definitely a control issue but I feel like if it wasn’t under control and this is a feeling I have, I don’t know because has never been out of control, the feeling I get is that if I am not there to solve people’s problems, it would just be chaos. But in myself, when I am there, I am the one in chaos.
[VERONICA]
Bingo. So your initial question was, how are we so naïve to this? You just answered it. Because we thrive in chaos. We do, we thrive in chaos. And that, it’s this cell, almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy. It’s like, it’s this validation that we’re taking really good care of our family. It’s this validation of, “I’m a great wife. I’m a great mom because I have, my life is completely coordinated except for the, the biggest issue with that is my life has been completely coordinated until you step out of the office and you show up as a dad and husband. Doesn’t sound coordinated. So get your ass back to work, make that money, and then until I call you out, you can come out.
[SANJUANA]
When really need you to the kids crying or something.
[VERONICA]
Yes. So guess what? He’s not going to help you, like at all. Like for what, why? You yell at me every time I come out.
[SANJUANA]
You can’t do anything right. And he’ll tell me, “I can’t do anything right.” And I’m like, “Well, yes, okay.” But I mean, I would appreciate his help. I would, if he did it my way, that’s the way I feel. So letting that controlling side of me just subside for a while, and it takes a lot of effort.
[VERONICA]
What would that mean? So let’s go there for a bit. What would that mean if you had to let go of the control because that’s essentially what it is. What would it be?
[SANJUANA]
I guess I’m just risking their happiness.
[VERONICA]
Keep going.
[SANJUANA]
Just like their happiness is at risk if I —
[VERONICA]
How? How is their happiness at risk? How might the kids view their dad different?
[SANJUANA]
Well, I don’t know. Honestly, I see it and I don’t want to see it because they might get to see him and he’s not the happiest person around him or he’s not present or he’s not able to help them. So it just like, why have the kids see that? [crosstalk] I don’t know because they have me. I got it.
[VERONICA]
So if the kids are able to see dad in this state of not being happy, what does that mean?
[SANJUANA]
I don’t know. I don’t want to distance them from their dad. I don’t want them to have this vision of their dad being the bear. Because he’s a good person, he’s a good father, and I can tell him this, you know all day long, but when there is something, like one of them hits the other one, whether it’s on purpose or an accident, because it happens all the time the boys are running around, he comes out and he’s in distress. He doesn’t know why one of them is crying so loud. So he just goes into like, he wants to fix the situation, but he wants to know who to blame. Nothing’s happening. Maybe I saw it, maybe I didn’t, but he doesn’t let allow me to speak because he’s worried about this crying child that’s like out of control, screaming and then the other one that’s at his knees, calling dad, dad. He wants to get carried. And then he wants the answer from the older one, the older one just shuts down and like clams up because he doesn’t know how to respond with this like fear of his dad. I don’t want my kids to be traumatized. And so I try to appease everyone and have everybody in a good state of mind. And meanwhile, I’m like driving myself nuts.
[VERONICA]
So, and then you ultimately become what you thought your husband was going to become. You ultimately could be the psycho crazy mom who’s now yelling. And so you just, “Nope, you’re going to do it wrong. I already know you’re going to do it wrong. I got this.” And you go ahead and tend to the kids, but you’re already at your limit ad then explosion, this tornado happens, all because you were attempting to prevent the tornado, which led to the tornado. But again, what you’re doing is you’re also pushing away your husband. Okay, yes, he might yell at the kids. He might, matter of fact, when he yells, the kids might get scared. That might happen. Do we want our kids to be scared? Absolutely not. And I’ve told you before, if it was like, if there was an actual threat, that’s different, but it’s not. Why is your screaming better than his screaming?
[SANJUANA]
It’s not, but it’s not.
[VERONICA]
How does, so how do we register that?
[SANJUANA]
I feel like it’s not right. But I feel like I have more right. To scream at them to get angry and to be this disciplinary and like mom to where I don’t feel like he has the right to do it because he’s not around them very often. And he doesn’t understand their room and here I can keep going on. Yes. So just saying it out loud, that doesn’t make any sense, like, no, but it’s a feeling it’s, it’s internalized. Like mama bear can take care of it. Mama bear confronted with them that’s, that’s just the way it’s been in my head. So
[VERONICA]
What would it be like if you’re able to communicate, if you and Adrian were able to sit down and have this healthy conversation where you were able to express that. “Listen, there are times where I don’t allow you to discipline the kids because it pains me whenever I see Aaron in fear of you. And it really bothers me when the kids, I see them get all nervous.” What would that be like if you’re able to have like, and Adrian was able to hear you and say, “But that’s not even my attempt.”
[SANJUANA]
Oh, we’ve had the conversation and we came to terms that, you know, I was one of five kids and when we would do something, there would be the belt. You know, it was just that easy. It was automatic. And I get it, those were different times and I just, I had to put it out there. I said, “Adrian, there is this fear that you’re going to hurt our children to like the point where they’re literally going to need like stitches.” And he’s like, “Oh my gosh. That is crazy. That is ridiculous. I would never. I love those kids.” And I’m like, “I know, but in my head, whenever we get to that point where you’re freaking out, that’s where I go. Like, oh no, no, no, you’re not allowed to do that. That’s not okay.”

Once we had the conversation, I’ve been able to just step back. I still interfere. I still put my hand kind of like in the middle, I still raise it. I still look in the eye, but then I try not to speak in that moment and he acknowledges it and he’s like, “I can’t let your mom tell me how to follow you anymore. This is what I need to say and I don’t care if she gets upset.” And then he says it and the kids understand and I’m like, “Oh I didn’t have to open my mouth. I didn’t have to say anything.” And sometimes the kids look at me and I’m like, “It is, that’s the way it is and they’re okay with that.” So it gets to where he’s having a conversation and now it’s less and less frequent that we have to have the eyes and the look and the hand. But it still happens because, you know a reaction in me, I get scared and I get worried and I’m like, “Well, where’s this going?” Like, and I also worry about him too. I always tell him, “It’s just a glass. It’s going to break and we’ll get another glass. You shouldn’t get all round up. You know, it’s a lot of stress.”
[VERONICA]
So what you’re saying though, that glass means it’s coming from the account that he works for.
[SANJUANA]
Oh, absolutely.
[VERONICA]
What she’s already had it established in his head that, “I have to work because I have to earn my ability to connect with my family. So that glass means, once again, I’m not enough. I have to go out and make that money to go ahead and,” do you see what I mean?
[SANJUANA]
Yes. It’s related.
[VERONICA]
Yes. So it’s your trauma and its history. I mean it’s not like actual, like PTSD related, but it’s just your immediate response and then his immediate response, which are both completely unhealthy, but nobody’s communicating. Like he’s not communicating to you. “Listen, when I feel like every time you say this, I’m not invited and I feel rejected, I feel isolated. I feel alone.” But that’s essentially what’s going on for him. He just doesn’t know how to say those words because men weren’t taught emotions. And for you, it’s like bumbling going to them off. If I say anything. And then if I tell him that I’m feeling rejected, I’m feeling frustrated. Well, he’s not going to know what to do with anyway, he’s going to try to fix it. And I don’t want to hear that. So I’m just going to pretend like nothing’s happening and watch your district play with the kids.
[SANJUANA]
Yes. I don’t the whole fixing thing. I mean, that’s, that’s what he wants to do, but honestly I don’t, I didn’t think it was a problem to fix. I mean, what do you, what are you trying to get to? I’m crying. I mean, I have an emotional issue and I cry and now he’s attentive and he’s wondering what’s going on. And I lay this on him and he’s just like, where did that come from? And I’ll bring up stories like, since like 12 years ago
[VERONICA]
On our honeymoon.
[SANJUANA]
And he was just, he will just like, be like in complete shock. Like, I didn’t realize that this was still something playing in your head. Yes.
[VERONICA]
So that’s, that’s the weapon. That’s the weapon that you bring in you guys’ relationship is you’re holding on to stuff that you, that you haven’t opened up about. And you’re penalizing him every single time because you refuse to work on it. So just like most of us women who refuse to really admit where we’re currently at in our marriage and how happy we are with our life.
[SANJUANA]
Honestly, I am in my best life. What do I have to complain about?
[VERONICA]
Exactly.
[SANJUANA]
I have a house, I have three very healthy kids, I have a husband that has a job. I’m educated. We’re great. I mean, we’re in California.
[VERONICA]
Yes, even more.
[SANJUANA]
So that, on the day to day you wake up and you’re grateful, and then you just, everything else is just momentary. It’s cyclical. He comes back and we’re great and then he goes on a trip and I don’t have to deal with it, the issues. And if there was an issue, I don’t have to think about it until he comes back and then by that time, like, “Why would you want to talk, bring that up again?” So then I just kind of brush it under the rug and we’re in a great place. Like why would we bring that up? Well, when mama bear decides to bring it up late at night, we’re in bed, and I’m like, “You know what I’m thinking about?” And he already knows, he goes, “Just turn the light back on. Let’s just talk about this.” And I’m like, “No, you’re tired.” And it’s just, “Oh shoot. He was going to listen to me and now I have to put out and say what I was going to say and now it’s going to lead into an argument because that’s not the time that you should be telling him.”
[VERONICA]
Well, no. So what if it didn’t have to lead into argument? What if you were able to have these conversations?
[SANJUANA]
I don’t, I mean, if we were able to have these kinds of, what would that even look like? Well, we would have time for each other. We wouldn’t be too busy, like washing dishes. Forget the dishes. Like let’s, “Hey, we have to come have a conversation. The kids are going to bed right now. Let’s talk about this.” But you know what? He’s okay on Facebook right now. He’s okay on the TV right now. I think we’ll just leave it for a different time when we are discussing something or I’m overwhelmed and I’m like, “Well, you don’t do anything. All you want to do is like watch TV or something.” And I’ll bring it up then and then just put, yes, that’s where the drama is, I guess.
[VERONICA]
But notice when you do it, when people, when women do tend to those issues, it’s already at 11 o’clock at night, 10 o’clock at night, versus we could have addressed it and had this open, healthy conversation, four o’clock or five o’clock and then moved on from it. Instead now we’re carrying all of this resentment for the following day. And then we act like nothing happens and then we carry it again because more is added to it. So it’s all of these things that we’re brushing under the rug versus addressing it at that moment.
[SANJUANA]
Right. And I guess that’s where you end up taking it out on the kids and you know, the crumbs on the floor and then you start focusing, hyper-focusing on the little things that are not right. And you lose that state of gratitude and you’re like, “Forget this. This is, I want out.” And you’re like, “Wait a minute. Did I just think that, did I just say that? I thought I was good.” And then you kind of just bring yourself back to like, neutral, like, “Wait, let me call him out again.” No, but it’s definitely like, I talk myself up and then I talk myself down and it’s an internal struggle, but I don’t communicate it because I don’t know how.
[VERONICA]
So. Okay. Tuesday, I’m going to teach you. The other thin, we’ll wrap up here, now knowing what you know, would you say to the mom that doesn’t even know she’s in denial?
[SANJUANA]
That’s a good question. I feel like, just ask yourself the question, “Is this where I want to be in five years? Is this where I want to be next year? Am I okay maintaining this kind of state? Are we okay with these cycles? And how long am I going to be okay with it?” So do you see yourself being okay with it next year? Do you want to just fix it or do you want to just let it see what happens? Because then the course is available next year. But it’s just, that is ultimately what I say, what I’d ask.
[VERONICA]
I’m glad you asked that. I remember asking you that same question five years from now. Can you do this for another five years? I had to ask myself that too and my answer was, “We would probably kill each other.” Sanjuana I want to thank you so much for hopping on. This was awesome.
[SANJUANA]
Thank you again for having me.
[VERONICA]
Absolutely. All right, ladies, obviously I want you to go ahead and ask your husband those questions that we gave you. And I really want you to open your eyes to something different, sort of like the shift in mindset. Although we see it one way, maybe there might be another one and share this episode with your husband and a friend that needs to hear it. All right, until then, bye.

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