[VERONICA CISNEROS]
Don’t do that. Willie was talking about pride and how men carry a bunch of pride. Women, I’m going to call you out. You do the same thing. You go, “Okay, come down, come down.” So women, you do the same thing and I’ll admit I do that too. And so it’s bringing it back and recognizing, “Wait a minute, what do I want the result to look like?”

Well, imagine a life where you feel supported, connected, and understood. I get it. Being a mom is hard, especially when you’re spinning so many plates. We exhaust ourselves trying to create the perfect life for our family. You deserve to enjoy your family without the stress perfectionism brings. On this podcast, I provide practical and relatable life experiences. I teach women quick and easy to use strategies to help them reclaim their identity, re-ignite their marriage, and enjoy their children. If you’re ready to be challenged, then pull up a chair, grab a pen and paper because it’s about to go down. I’m Veronica Cisneros, a licensed marriage and family therapist. And this is the Empowered and Unapologetic podcast.
[VERONICA]
Hey ladies, welcome to Empowered and Unapologetic. I’m your host, Veronica Cisneros. I am super excited for today’s episode because I invited no one else, no one other than my sexy ass been Willie. Hey babe.
[WILLIE CISNEROS]
Hey, what’s up everybody.
[VERONICA]
All right. So today I’m not going to lie. I don’t know where this conversation is going to go. You probably are going to hear us argue, you probably are going to hear us coming back from an argument, who knows. Let’s just see where this goes. The reason why I’m being so candid is because a lot of you guys have been asking me questions with this masterclass that’s coming up, the masterclass being three simple steps to connect and communicate with your husband, with that masterclass coming up, you guys are asking a whole bunch of questions of, “How did I lose my spark? How do I communicate with my husband? How do I prevent a conversation going from just a simple conversation to now, we’re not even talking and we’re avoiding each other?”

And so I wanted to have Willie on here because one, I think it’s awesome that he’s here and I get to do this episode while staring at his fine ass, but then two, you guys get to hear it from a men’s perspective. I’m not going to lie. He’s going to give me the crazy eyes in like 5.2 seconds, because I’m totally going to put his on the spot. Totally going to put his on the spot. Yes, it’s going to be fine. You’ll be fine. You’ll be okay, honey. You’ll be okay. Maybe, who knows? So yes, no. Yes, it’s happening. It’s happening. All right, let’s do it. All right. So what do us women need to know about men? What do we need to know about men? Like what are you guys not telling us when we argue? Like, and I want you to be completely honest because you know I have a lot of men that, I provide therapy for a lot of men clients and one thing I hear over and over, and this is just to kind of prep you on how real we’re getting, one thing I hear over and over is, “I literally just shut down because their ass is going to yell anyway. So why even say anything?”
[WILLIE]
I agree.
[VERONICA]
Okay. You could have like paused a little longer.
[WILLIE]
I did. It was like 0.5 five seconds.
[VERONICA]
0.5, okay. So, okay when you say that I can already hear the women that are listening to this et pissed off because it’s like, “Okay, wait a minute. The only reason why I’m yelling at you is because if you would’ve done it the first time, second time, shit, even the fifth time, we wouldn’t be in this predicament. I have to tell you over and over and over for you to help me run the house.”
[WILLIE]
That’s the problem.
[VERONICA]
Okay, let’s go there.
[WILLIE]
You’re telling me. If there’s kids involved, you tell kids, you don’t tell your husband.
[VERONICA]
So how do we get to do shit?
[WILLIE]
I don’t tell you —
[VERONICA]
How we get you to do stuff.
[WILLIE]
Your husband is your partner, and you should be talking with him, not talking at him. He’s not a five-year-old nor should he be treated like a five-year-old because if you want a five-year-old that’s when you get a five-year-old argument. It goes back and forth. And that’s the problem with this because that’s where a lot of arguments start is because, or the man clams up, because he’s like, “If I say something now, all of a sudden then she starts either getting defensive and once we argue like that, it just goes back and forth. Or it’s, “Why are you yelling at me now?” That all started because of the approach.
[VERONICA]
So you’re saying, because of our approach? The thing is, if I come at you, and I’m not talking about us. Well, kind of, you know what, no, f*** it. Let’s go. If I come at you nice, it might work. It might work. So I’m going to give you a prime example and we’re totally going to go here. That smoke detector that’s outside of this bedroom —
[WILLIE]
It’s completely fine.
[VERONICA]
Okay. So let’s go there. Like for me, when I look at it, okay, ladies, you don’t know what we’re talking about [crosstalk] We’re going to go there.
[WILLIE]
I can cover last night and cover just five minutes ago —
[VERONICA]
All right. So we’re totally going to go there because I want them to hear us. If we argue, we argue, but I want them, I’m not saying we’re going to argue perfectly. Not saying that, but I want them to hear like where we go and how we get there. So a primary complaint is, let’s say for me, smoke detector. Because it’s not up, I go into you —
[WILLIE]
It’s up.
[VERONICA]
You put it up?
[WILLIE]
I put a replacement up.
[VERONICA]
You did?
[WILLIE]
Mmh.
[VERONICA]
Oh shit. Really honey? All right. We were about to take a break, take a commercial break. Kids earmuffs, because it’s about to go down in Cisneros’ house. You did it babe?
[WILLIE]
Yes.
[VERONICA]
Oh, okay. So before though.
[WILLIE]
Okay.
[VERONICA]
Yes. I can’t even be mad at you anymore.
[WILLIE]
You try to find something.
[VERONICA]
I didn’t want to. I just want to have the sex.
[WILLIE]
That’s right.
[VERONICA]
Okay. Damn bad argument. You guys, what’s happening is there was a story there. So let’s stay there for a minute. All right.
[WILLIE]
Let’s pretend it’s not done.
[VERONICA]
Yes, let’s pretend it’s not done.
[WILLIE]
I want you to get this done.
[VERONICA]
Damn baby. I’m like, “Holy shit. I’m not kidding. Like make it in like 5.2 seconds. So anyway —
[WILLIE]
Make a podcast.
[VERONICA]
Make a podcast. Can you imagine? We wouldn’t talk at all? I mean maybe. Okay. So back to the day of smoke detector’s cannon here. My head goes into, there’s going to be a fire. That one damn smoke detector isn’t going to detect the fire and we’re all going to die. You don’t see it that way.
[WILLIE]
No.
[VERONICA]
Why not?
[WILLIE]
Because I’ve taken precautions to get shit done that you didn’t consider, like putting fire extinguishers.
[VERONICA]
Oh yes. But that’s not going to help me when it’s like two o’clock in the morning and my —
[WILLIE]
It is when you are not having to run through fire and you can instead —
[VERONICA]
Okay, so this is where we are at?
[WILLIE]
Or, there’s a fire alarm that’s been replaced already and —
[VERONICA]
But when it wasn’t, but when it wasn’t, yes.
[WILLIE]
When it wasn’t then yes, there’s definitely, I wouldn’t say an extreme danger, but there’s just, I mean, there’s things to consider that. Yes, you want to make sure that you’re always safe
[VERONICA]
But you weren’t, but you didn’t at the time.
[WILLIE]
The perception is that you don’t care.
[VERONICA]
Boom. Yes. Okay. Okay, I don’t know if we’ll be able to record this whole thing because you’re saying, “Yes.”
[WILLIE]
From you to me or like your perception of me is that I just don’t care.
[VERONICA]
You don’t give a shit.
[WILLIE]
Yes.
[VERONICA]
You’re okay with us dying because all you want to do is get your ass to bed and go to bed. That’s all you want to do. All you want to do is brush your teeth, get ready for bed and then maybe kiss the kids. But your main goal is to get in that bed, probably have sex, which isn’t going to happen because that smoke detector wasn’t up. Now it is, but before it wasn’t or just go to sleep, check out. And so for me, it’s like, we’re all going to die. I go into this catastrophic mode where I start these complete extremes. And so when I, any time I would walk up the stairs and see that damn smoke detector, I swear to God, I wanted to throw a punch at you. I’m just being honest, like totally being real. I wanted to throw a punch at you because it’s like, dude, he doesn’t give a shit about us.
[WILLIE]
And it was 11 o’clock at night. Believe me, I wanted to throw a punch at you too.
[VERONICA]
Willie, what are you saying that for? What’s going on? What did I do?
[WILLIE]
Because that’s when you’re asking me to fix it the smoke detector. So that is the time when you’re bringing it up. Not earlier in the day, like say if it was a Saturday —
[VERONICA]
Wait a minute. Would you really throw a punch at me?
[WILLIE]
No, I wouldn’t.
[VERONICA]
Okay. Well you better say that out loud because I mean, now we have to [crosstalk] Now we’ve got a whole domestic violence case.
[WILLIE]
No, no. But yes, like when there’s an opportune time to do it at an hour, that is, it’s fitting to be able to do it at when there’s daylight, stuff like that versus doing it when your husband is like half dead, ready to go to sleep, tired as hell or even after coming home from a really long day of work.
[VERONICA]
But that’s when I remember.
[WILLIE]
Then that’s a problem.
[VERONICA]
That’s, so let’s go there.
[WILLIE]
It’s not a priority early on and if it’s not like something that absolutely has to get done, as soon as he gets home, well then why can’t you tell him at that time when it should be done?
[VERONICA]
Because I didn’t see it.
[WILLIE]
Then that’s a problem.
[VERONICA]
I didn’t see it until when I was up going upstairs and I was like, okay, wait a minute. This guy —
[WILLIE]
Make it an issue. If it’s that much of an issue, then make it an issue earlier, versus waiting until the end of the day. And then it’s just a lingering issue that’s just one day turns into two, two turns into four and so on and so on. And it just continues to be this eyesore that you see right before you go to bed or when you hear the chirping in the house and you realize you’re on the second floor and that chirping is coming up on the first floor and the furthest part away from your house. And you’re just like, “Screw it. I’m going to go to sleep with that damn chirping noise.”
[VERONICA]
That’s how you are.
[WILLIE]
Yes. I’m like, “Screw it. I don’t give a shit. I’ll go to sleep with that.”
[VERONICA]
So help me understand —
[WILLIE]
Because I know that we have other fire alarms in this house and that’s just one and yes, I could have done it earlier, but I totally forgot. And I got to get that done cause it’s bothering me too, but —
[VERONICA]
I love that you said that.
[WILLIE]
But I will go to sleep with it because I am just, at that point, I’m just so freaking tired. And I may do it just because I’m so irritated by the sound. If I’m a light sleeper, I may just go do it and take care of it but it’s those things where, what does the saying go? An emergency on your part doesn’t constitute one on mine.
[VERONICA]
Ugh. I hate when you say that. I love it because it’s true but also don’t like it.
[WILLIE]
Yes.
[VERONICA]
So what you’re basically telling me, because I want to make sure I understand it, it’s not that you don’t think it’s a priority. You know it’s a priority.
[WILLIE]
Yes.
[VERONICA]
However, it’s not a, from my understanding, if that was the only smoke alarm in the house —
[WILLIE]
That would definitely be an issue.
[VERONICA]
Ah, okay. So see? I’m glad we were able to have this discussion because for me it is the only smoke alarm in this house. You know why? Because I don’t hear the other alarms chirping or I don’t see the other alarms disassembled in that moment. In that moment, I think my kids are going to die. My husband doesn’t care. I should probably leave his ass.
[WILLIE]
It’s all right there.
[VERONICA]
Why are you pointing out? Why are you putting me on blast right now? Okay. He’s pointing out the one that’s literally right over our room. And there is a fire detector in every single one of our kids’ rooms, every single part of this house. This was one. So I have to admit, I let all of that fear and all of that distorted thinking, which is that catastrophic thinking, this is going to happen. This is going to happen. I let that get in the way to where it caused me to be angry at you and at 11 o’clock at night. And so I got to that mode, but now kind of hearing what you’re saying, it’s like, ah, you actually do care. You do care about us and you do love us. And it’s so crazy because first women, we, a lot of us and I hear this with my clients, a lot of us forget that you actually care about us because we want you to care the way we care for you. And so, can you say that again what you said about your emergency —
[WILLIE]
An emergency on your part does not constitute one of mine.
[VERONICA]
Yes. I’m going to tell you right now, like in the heat of the moment don’t ever say God is just trying to watch out for you, but like —
[WILLIE]
I can say another one.
[VERONICA]
No, you did enough, but like —
[WILLIE]
Failure to plan is a plan to fail?
[VERONICA]
Really.
[WILLIE]
Yes.
[VERONICA]
Okay. Okay, now you’re going into Marine lingo. All right. So a failure, no, what did you say again? I like try to just, the minute I hear it, I like literally tried. It’s trying to register, but it’s like, no, it doesn’t compute, flush it out.
[WILLIE]
An emergency on your part doesn’t constitute one of mine.
[VERONICA]
An emergency on your part doesn’t constitute an emergency on mine. Would you say that this goes for things that I see as really important, but you don’t see it as important as I do?
[WILLIE]
Yes.
[VERONICA]
Okay, because this is another thing.
[WILLIE]
That to me is perspective. It’s all about perspective because what you find is important or you’re interested in, or you want to get done right then and there is because that’s what is important to you. Those are the things that are on your agenda and your priorities versus your spouse may have some totally different and wants, needs, desires, whatever it is. And so it’s just being able to communicate those things to one another, to say like, “Look, I know you have this going on, but we also have to get this done. This is, it’s been like this for awhile.” Case in point, we a party this weekend and we had people that were going to be outside, people that were going to be washing their hands and stuff. And I had to get a pipe fixed on a plumbing area outside of our house and so —
[VERONICA]
Because that also took like forever. I’m not going to lie, but it took like probably three years for it. I’m just, between you and I folks, between you and I, that Home Depot bag was sitting on. I’m just being honest. I mean, we’re calling each other out. I’m going to call you as well out. The Home Depot bag was sitting on the little cabinet with the receipts for like, I don’t know, six months. I’m just saying before, pre-COVID, pre-COVID.
[WILLIE]
Don’t mind it. Anyhow, it was taken care of during a time that was needed versus a time where just do it for the sake of doing it, because I just want to give you another task to do, because that’s my love language. And it’s hard —
[VERONICA]
Wait a minute. You’re talking about that now?
[WILLIE]
Yes, yes.
[VERONICA]
That is my love of language though.
[WILLIE]
So there was a time to get it done and that was the time and it’s done.
[VERONICA]
Yes. Thank you, Jesus. Now we can actually wash our hands outside. We don’t have to walk.
[WILLIE]
You just got to bring your hands outside.
[VERONICA]
I don’t know if it’s like too far. It’s like, what am I trying to, if I’m trying to get my steps in, I’m all about it. But if I’m not, I need to go outside. Right ladies?
[WILLIE]
Moving on.
[VERONICA]
So, yes. My emergency, isn’t your emergency. Now this is where I think, no, I’m not going to say, I think. This is where I know a lot of women and men lose each other. So one thing that somebody said to me, and it was a male and he said, “Men fear women leaving. So we’ll wait until it gets so bad and we hear divorces on the table or we wait until it’s so bad that she starts crying or we wait until it’s so bad that she’s no longer talking to me.”
[WILLIE]
Because we don’t see it that bad.
[VERONICA]
Yes. Like, and I was having —
[WILLIE]
We don’t see it as bad as the woman sees it. It’s like, women are very emotional creatures. Men are not. And so like a guy would be like, “Really, you’re crying over that? Like it’s not even that big of a deal.” And then that turns into like, “Okay, now this is the norm. She’s going to cry over this or she’s going to get upset about this and then just blow it off.” And that goes on day after day, days turn into months or years and eventually it goes where, “Look, I’m tired of this shit and I’m ready to pack my bags and go and we’re done.” And then it’s at that point that the man realizes, “Holy shit, this whole time, she was serious and this was really bothering her. Now I have to take her serious. And I didn’t know that it was this serious.”
[VERONICA]
Yes.
[WILLIE]
So it’s just —
[VERONICA]
How do you guys miss the mark? Because that’s a big, so —
[WILLIE]
Part of it is like you’re blind to all the signals, all the things that are like indicating, all the indicators, blind to all those indicators and the things that are telling you like things aren’t going well. I mean what is your sex life like? Is that starting to go down the drain? Are you like in public? Is it a facade? Are you like in front of friends faking that you’re happy when in reality you’re not, conversations are short, or they may not even be conversations at all or even sleeping together anymore in the same bed. Are there ever signs of affection? Like all those things, little by little are the things that you used to have. Are they starting to dwindle and go away? Those should be those telltale signs that say she’s about to end this shit and I need to figure this out. And if that’s the case, then yes. As a man, put your pride aside and go to fix it, do something, because you’re about to lose her and you may not get her back.
[VERONICA]
Yes. So I challenged, he is one of my clients, I challenged him and I asked him why? Like you noticed these things going on, he answered the same way, “Well, she always does this.”
[WILLIE]
Pride.
[VERONICA]
Yes. Well, he didn’t know it was pride. He had no idea it was pride. He’s just like, “Well, I know it’s going to get better and if I just fix what she’s telling me to fix, then it will be done. We’ll be good to go.”
[WILLIE]
There’s our fixes.
[VERONICA]
Hell yes. So that’s where he would go. He would go straight into, “I’m going to go out and fix it and then it will be cool,” but then she goes back to her normal routine, doing everything. So, I mean, I’m going to let her do it. She’s doing it anyway and she criticizes me when I do it. And so he was talking about falling into that pattern and he also said, he also had mentioned that, what did he say? I wrote it down. He thought, “If I just do things differently, then everything would work out. I always thought everything would work out and then now I’m here sitting in front of a therapist fighting for my marriage.” And I look at her and I asked her, because we were doing couples therapy, and I asked her, “Why did you allow it to get this far?” And she immediately took the defense. She was like, “Wait a minute, girl. I thought you were on my side.” And it’s like, “No, I’m not in either of your sides. Why did you allow it, allow it to go this far?”

And what her reply was, “I thought he knew what I was saying. I thought by me complaining it in this or complaining about this in this way, he really knew that I was at my limit.” Another thing I hear women say is, “Well, I just thought it would get better when. It will get better when we’re financially stable. It’ll get better when we actually go on dates. It’ll get better when we start to have sex. It’ll get better when we sit down and have these deep conversations.” And I asked her, “How long have you been saying, it’ll get better when?” And ladies, how long have you been saying, it’ll get better when. And she replied, “10 years.”
[WILLIE]
I’d say part of that is, from both parties, is perception and assumption. It’s perception that things are going to get better or that what’s a big complaint to you isn’t a big complaint to me. And as a man, it’s, “We can get over this. We’re going to be fine. Just she’ll snap out of it.” That’s just being like okay seeing that, their assumption that everything is okay, it’s not. And then the other assumption too, from, I would say the woman’s perspective is that like, “He should know better. He should know that things aren’t working the way that they’re supposed to be and that he’s going to lose me if he doesn’t fix these things, or he’s not willing to work on our relationship, because when things are not getting better, we are not okay.”
[VERONICA]
Yes. So one thing that I appreciate about both of us, and I’m not going to say it happens every single argument, because it doesn’t, but I’m going to go over a few techniques on what couples can do, what women can do. And I say women, because I got to be honest. It starts with you. I know that sucks. I’m aware of it, but it does. So answer that question. Why does it always have to start with us? Why do I got to say, “You know what. Hey, we need to do work on our marriage. Hey, you know what? Our kids are failing in school. Hey, you know what? This isn’t working.” Like, why do we have to be the ones that seek out help? What’s wrong with you guys? Why don’t you do it? Be honest.
[WILLIE]
I would say because the guys, I would say it’s, for me, it’s not in a man’s nature to say we need it. Like, if they’re saying that it’s because it’s too late.
[VERONICA]
The men? Wow.
[WILLIE]
Yes. Where a woman is going to recognize those things early, because they see love, I think, differently while a man, most men don’t even know how to show love or be romantic or do things like that. That for them, it’s all like, some may not be the romantic type. So women are going to notice, like when things are starting to go awry and where they’re no longer showing affection, maybe there’s indications of you know, they’re starting to fall out of love with one another. Maybe there’s assumptions of side relationships that are going on, or whatever. Like the relationship is—
[VERONICA]
Like the men?
[WILLIE]
For either one, that they’re going in either direction. And the woman, to me, in my opinion, is going to be the one that recognizes those things and say something versus the guy. The guy may say, “We’ll get over this. We don’t need to do anything. I don’t need to bring this up. We’re going to be fine and act like it doesn’t even exist.”
[VERONICA]
So avoid, who goes straight to avoiding?
[WILLIE]
Yes, avoidance. And I think still that’s, to me is all part of the level of pride and just the machismo, just a man’s human nature, just trying to be macho and act like being tough and that we’re going to be okay. Things are going to be fine. It’s not as bad as you are making it seem.
[VERONICA]
I think the other part from what I hear from men is it can’t be this bad because if it’s this bad, then I’m failing. And I don’t know how many men that have come to my office that have been divorced before have said it was so embarrassing to tell my parents I’m getting a divorce.
[WILLIE]
And I failed.
[VERONICA]
Bingo, because, yes, every single guy that I’ve ever done, I’ve been in therapy with, they’ve all said that. Like going up to my parents and telling them I’m getting a divorce is damn near, like saying I totally screwed up in life and I’m a complete failure. And this next marriage, or the next relationship, I don’t want to freaking think about, because —
[WILLIE]
I would say because most men are competitive. So it’s like, you see it.
[VERONICA]
Ah, that’s smart. I didn’t think about that.
[WILLIE]
They see it almost like a game. Like it’s you either win or you lose. You just lost. And you know, so seeing it in a competitive nature, like, yes, that’s your relationship. That’s your marriage. That you’re losing this battle is not going to be something that you’re going to be proud to say, or to own up to.
[VERONICA]
I didn’t think about that.
[WILLIE]
So I think that’s part of, to me, that’s part of it.
[VERONICA]
Holy crap. I never, I’m just being honest right now. I’m kind of having like this light bulb moment. I know men are competitive, but I didn’t attach the two. And that’s helpful for me. When I’m meeting with men, I know that there, I knew that there was pride. I knew that they really didn’t understand what was going on with regards to emotions. And I knew that they want to just go to straight to fixing. And because they didn’t know how to fix it they went to avoidance. “Because I don’t know how to deal with this, I’m just going to shove this under the rug and pretend like everything’s fine. Check out and then check in when the air is cleared.” But you’re right. It is that competitive nature and so they go straight into, we can’t look at that right now. Keep on moving. You’re crying. Ah-ah, let’s go. Let’s go, let’s go. You don’t cry. We’re going to figure this out.
[WILLIE]
Or let me fix it by buying flowers or whatever. This will make it go away. Or let’s have sex. Let me make her dinner because I don’t make her dinner. I don’t do any of that stuff. So let me do something off the cuff that I normally don’t do that maybe she nags me for it. And maybe that little bandaid will fix it. And those are some of the things that they’ll try to do, like in a panic, just to think that maybe this will fix it and this, it’ll be okay for a little while. And it may work for a bit, but then they start going back to their —
[VERONICA]
Their old habits.
[WILLIE]
Yes. Their old ways, because the wind was, “I got the wife. I have the trophy .I’ve already won. I have the marriage. The loss is at the end when you realize you were never winning to begin with, and that you may have won in the beginning, but the relationship it’s, a relationship isn’t a sprint. It’s a marathon. So you’re constantly trying to make things, you know you’re mending things as they fall apart. You’re trying to reinvent yourself and grow and learn with each other.
[VERONICA]
That’s so spot on. And so how can we alleviate this? How can we remove this altogether? And so how I usually do this in my practice and in the people that I coach is I teach people how to listen to understand. Because if you’re able to listen to understand, you’re actually hearing what the other person is saying. Don’t get me wrong. I struggle with this every now and then, especially when I’m feeling so passionate about something. It takes me a while to come back. Why are you looking at me like that? Because it’s true. It does. I feel so passionate about it. I want you to feel passionate about it and when you’re like dismissive about it, that’s it. I’m throwing you in the pool, drop kicking you. I don’t care if I’m 5″2. I’m climbing a ladder.
[WILLIE]
We both know that ain’t happening.
[VERONICA]
I know, but I, a woman could always dream, all right? A woman can always dream. So ladies, I’m going to teach you how to listen to understand. But before I teach you, I want to ask you three questions. One of the main things is you’ll tell me, how do I listen to understand without being so defensive? This is why I’m going to ask you three questions. The first question, if you haven’t grabbed a pen and paper, ladies, have I touched you nothing? Grab a pen and paper because I really want you to write this down. And if you haven’t grabbed your husband yet, girl, push Pause, rewind the thing, replay the tape because you’re going to want him to listen. Didn’t you want to listen to this?
[WILLIE]
Yes. Oh yes.
[VERONICA]
All right.
[WILLIE]
Grab his ass or get his attention.
[VERONICA]
Grab his ass. Really? That’s all we need?
[WILLIE]
Grab his ass and start walking and he’s going to chase you thinking that there’s something else.
[VERONICA]
And then he’s getting bent with our voices. “What the hell?”
[WILLIE]
You baited me.
[VERONICA]
All right. So question number one. What is the message you just received when your partner was talking? I’m going to repeat that question. What is the message you just received when your partner was talking? What did you hear him say? Because when Willie and I are talking, what I tend to hear him say, even though he’s not saying it, but where I go right away is, “It’s not important to me. Leave me alone. Go away.” That’s why I hear him say. He’s not saying that. He’s telling me probably something like I will get to it later. I’m not going to make your emergency my emergency. Oh my God. I swear to God ladies, when he says that, I’m like, “Oh my God. Home girl is about to catch a case.” She’s back to catch a case because it’s true but I don’t want him to say that out loud.

Like don’t tell me that. So right away, it’s like, “Oh, dang it. He’s using these words that I know is healthy and I don’t want to be healthy right now. I just want to scream at you. So I have to come, I have to play back the tape. I have to pause and I have to think about, “Okay, what is going on? What is going on right now? What is he trying to tell me? Well, he’s trying to tell me, what were you saying that damn phrase again, I’ve literally flushed it out. Like after you said it like —
[WILLIE]
An emergency on your part doesn’t constitute one on mine
[VERONICA]
Yes. You know why? Because you say it low and so I like —
[WILLIE]
An emergency on your part does not constitute one of mine.
[VERONICA]
Okay. It doesn’t help when you point fingers. Like the finger is about to be broken. We’re about to get the cops called on us. This couple is always arguing.
[WILLIE]
Let’s go. Move on.
[VERONICA]
All right. So what is the message you receive? That’s first. I already gave you an example. Question number two. Why is this moment, is this conversation, why is it so triggering? What do I mean by triggering? What I mean by triggering is how is it invoking? How is it bringing up some form of pain that you’ve experienced in the past? What is this reminding you of? That’s how you know it’s a trigger. A trigger is an emotional wound that has not been healed yet. And so it’s brought back up to life and it’s completely exposed. So what is it? How is this triggering you? And so for me, it’s triggering me because whenever I would go up to my mom and dad, mom, I love you. Dad, I love you too. Whenever I’d go up to my dad and say, “Dad, hey, check this out.” The first thing I would hear is Veronica, “What is that going to do for me?”

And it was like so heart-wrenching because it was like I was coming up to you with good stuff. Or I would have something to say, and it would be completely dismissed, especially, I’m about to get like all vulnerable being up in here, especially when it had to deal with my dad’s addiction. There were times when we would have family meetings and I would want to share everything. Like literally I was like 10 or 11 years old, trying to host a family, meeting, a family intervention so my dad would stop using. And I remember just being mad. It’s okay. It’s Veronica, just psst. You’re all hyper, because I was hyper when I was a kid. I’m still hyper now but I would always get like told, “Just calm down. Calm down.”

And so right away, it was this message that I had received of me not being enough and then second, that was an emotional trigger that I hadn’t healed. So that’s why, whenever Willie, when he and I were, in our beginning years, that’s why it would trigger me so much. It triggers me now, but I’m able to come back from it because I have worked on it.

My last question, do you feel exposed, insecure, rejected, or judged? Circle one. And I want you to think about what is the emotion you’re experiencing in that moment? Frustration, rage, insecurity? Like what is it? Identify it. And now I’m going to teach you how to listen to understand. So as you heard Willie and I talking right now, I actually listened to what he had to say. And I heard him. How do you know I heard him? Because I repeated what he said. And a good rule of thumb is when your husband’s talking, or whoever’s talking like, let’s say they have the ruler. They have they have the mic. So that person that has the mic has the full say, and they get to go out and talk and you guys can come up with like a timer of two minutes. They got two minutes to go and plead their case until the mic gets taken from them.

So Willie had so much time to go and plead his case. After I grabbed the mic back. Not to react, ladies. We’re not going to react based off of emotions. I grabbed the mic back because now I’m going to spend those exact two minutes repeating and clarifying what the hell he said to me just so I understand his point of view. I already can hear you saying, “Wait a minute, two minutes is too damn long. I just want to tell him how I feel.” Yes. How’s that working for you? It’s not, and that’s not necessarily listening. So for listening to understand, we’re pushing the pause button on what we want to say. So while they’re talking, fricking take notes. Take notes. He brought up this point. He brought up this point.

You don’t have to write a whole thing on what you want to say next. Hell, no. Write down his points. Believe me, ladies, when it’s your turn to talk oh, your going to remember everything you want to say to him, but it’s just not going to come out in a defensive manner. Once you’re able to go out and get clarity, you then ask any questions. Hey did I understand that, like I said, with the smoke detector? So wait a minute. You do care about us. Wait a minute, your thought, your brain automatically goes to the 50,000 fire alarms we have and the 50,000 fire extinguishers you’re have.
[WILLIE]
That’s correct.
[VERONICA]
So I asked you, “Oh, because all of this time I was just thinking of, this was our only one, right?” Which then, what ended up happening for us on your end the minute I was able to ask for clarity?
[WILLIE]
I realized you were catastrophizing at the time, and I had to bring you back to reality to let you know that we are going to be okay, there are more fire alarms in this house and it’ll get done.
[VERONICA]
Bingo.
[WILLIE]
Just not right now.
[VERONICA]
Yes. So you were able to understand my stance.
[WILLIE]
Yes.
[VERONICA]
And my guard was down. I wasn’t like defensive or anything, which meant where were you at?
[WILLIE]
I was heightened too. Like when you start coming at me, I, it’s a, what is it called? A fight or freeze, whatever it is.
[VERONICA]
Yes, flight or freeze.
[WILLIE]
Yes. That’s you.
[VERONICA]
Yes. I’m sorry my therapist side is coming out on me.
[WILLIE]
So it’s like when you go up, and when you come out hot with high emotion, sometimes don’t get upset if you’re met with the same high emotion back. That’s what ends up happening in most arguments that one person that’s coming at them hazy, the other person ends up firing back and then it’s like, “Why are you yelling at me?” Because of how it all started.
[VERONICA]
Yes. So this is, right now —
[WILLIE]
Having a conversation.
[VERONICA]
Bingo with our conversation, I was able to listen to you. So the minute I was able to ask you questions, where was your emotion? Where were you at?
[WILLIE]
I was able to answer and provide a clarifying answer that was respectful. And it was able to provide the answer that you wanted versus —
[VERONICA]
And it’s not always the answer I want, right?
[WILLIE]
Correct. But it’s also, a lot of times it’s the delivery.
[VERONICA]
Yes. So ladies, write down what he’s saying, write down his points because you’re going to explain to him, okay, you got the mic, you got two minutes and put the timer on. I’m going to have the same two minutes, but I’m going to clarify what you said. And then it’ll go into your two minutes. This is not your moment to shine. Don’t do that. Willie was talking about pride and how men carry a bunch of pride. Women, I’m going to call you out. You do the same thing. You go, “Okay, come down, come down.” So women, you do the same thing and I’ll admit I do that too. And so it’s bringing it back and recognizing, “Wait a minute, what do I want the result to look like?” For me, it was on that smoke detector up. But more importantly, what do I really want? What’s the big picture? I want my husband and I to connect. I don’t want to walk on eggshells. I don’t want to end this conversation where we avoid other for three days because that just sucks. I don’t want that. So if I don’t want that, then I need to follow these rules.

Ladies, the last thing you do is if you say something that you wish you could take back, then own it. I don’t care if your husband’s doing that. Don’t care right now. I’m totally focused on you. If you say something that you wish you could take back, then own it. The minute you’re able to say, “Hey, you know what? I was out of line. I just said something. I was totally disrespectful.” He might still be up. He might still have his emotions about it, but you’re changing the way you guys have a conversation. And so guess what’s going to happen. He’s going to let down his guard. He’s probably going to be hurt, that’s okay, but he’s going to be more inclined to listen to you versus doing what he does, which might be avoiding, shutting down or just blows up just so you could stop talking. And then he goes to sleep and acts like nothing’s wrong. We’re trying to avoid that. So those are the rules to listen to understand. Where are you guys go from there —
[WILLIE]
Give them an example of how trying to do it, but passive aggressive, like maybe smartest comments. What would a response sound like? So somebody that’s trying to do this approach and go, “Well, I said it, but I also gave a dagger.”
[VERONICA]
Okay. So I’m going to give you one right now. I got you. I got you. I got you.
[WILLIE]
Because it does happen.
[VERONICA]
Yes. I mean, I wasn’t, okay, so an example would be something along the lines of, okay, so wait a minute. So what you’re saying is, “Is that right? Is that right? You’re saying this. Yes. All right. Okay. Yes. You’re saying, okay, fine. You think that’s important? Cool. Okay.” That’s being passive aggressive, totally being passive aggressive. Pay attention to the tone, pay attention to your mannerisms. And then are you really listening or are you just waiting for you to grab their mic? And be honest with yourself. So it appears as if, yes, I’m following through with this exercise, that’s the passive part. But the aggressive part is I’m trying to hurry you up and I’m doing it in a condescending manipulative way so that I can get the damn mic back. That’s the aggressive part.
[WILLIE]
And that’s not just for the girl. That’s also for the guy too because it could work in either way. And it does.
[VERONICA]
Yes. So ladies, and gentlemen, because I know you men are up in here too, I want to tell I’m first off. I’m so proud you guys listened to the entire episode. We got through it. Willie and I didn’t die. Like we didn’t kill each. Thank you, Jesus. So I want to personally invite you to my masterclass. I have a few dates coming up. One is coming up this Tuesday, ladies. This Tuesday, we have our first masterclass and that is on the 27th. Super excited and it’s at 12]30. I’m sorry, it’s not at 12]30. It’s at 1]30. I’m looking at my life together. It’s at 1]30 Pacific Standard Time. I will be having another masterclass on Wednesday at 7]30 PM. Pacific Standard Time and in this lesson, I will teach you three simple steps to connect with your husband and have conversations with him. Three simple steps. They’re very, very easy.

I’m super excited. This is going to be about an hour long masterclass because I want to make sure I teach you and I go through slides and you guys have a really good understanding of how to do this. And then the last about 15 minutes is when I’m going to be doing a Q&A. So you’ll be able to ask me whatever questions you have and I’ll provide you with my honest answers. Question that I’ve been asked a lot is, “Can I invite my husband? Can he listen in?” Hell to the yes. Invite him. It’s going to be awesome. Whatever questions he has, guess what, I’m going to be answering those questions too. It’ll be a helpful class for the two of you to take so we can start to build up that connection.

Babe thank you so much for jumping on here with me.
[WILLIE]
Thank you. I’m going to jump on you a little bit later. Capitalizing on that smoke detector.
[VERONICA]
All right, you guys. Have a good one. Bye.

Many women lose their own identity in the shadow of being a mom and a wife. We are a community of women who support each other. We leave perfectionism behind to become empowered and unapologetic. I know you’re ready for the next steps. If you want to become empowered and unapologetic, get my free course, Unapologetically Me over empoweredandunapologetic.com/course.

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