[VERONICA]:
Empowered and Unapologetic is part of the Practice of the Practice Podcast Network, a family of podcasts that changed the world. To hear other podcasts like the Bomb Mom podcast, Beta Male Revolution, or Imperfect Thriving, go to practiceofthepractice.com/network.

Have you ever thought, how did I manage to lose myself? Being a mom is so hard, especially when we’re feeling stressed and disconnected. We exhaust ourselves trying to create this perfect life for our family. You deserve to enjoy your marriage and your kids, without the stress perfectionism brings. I am going to teach you how to identify who you are, outside of all of the roles you play.

Hi, I’m Veronica Cisneros. I’m a wife, mother of three, and a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. I am on a mission to teach women just like you how to become empowered and unapologetic. Welcome to our girl gang.

[VERONICA]:
Hey, ladies, welcome to Empowered and Unapologetic. I’m your host, Veronica Cisneros. Today’s guest is a huge treat and it was totally last minute. Her and I linked up and we just hit it off because exactly what she’s teaching is what all of us need, especially during the holidays. Her name is Jen Smith. She is the creator of Modern Frugality, and co-host of the Frugal Friends podcast, her best selling book, The No Spend Challenge Guide has over 400 5-star reviews on Amazon. And she’s helped 1000s of people save money, spend less and achieve their financial goals faster. Jen, thank you so much for being on the show. How are you?

[JEN]:
I’m good. It’s so good to be here.

[VERONICA]:
So the biggest question I have for you right now is, how did you become frugal? Like, I mean, I learned, I learned from Dave Ramsey, and I’m going to tell you right now, Mexican and Dave Ramsey kind of don’t mix. Here’s why. Here’s why. The minute we have, and I’m only speaking for me, not for everybody, but the minute we have $20 in our pocket, it’s like, alright, we’re gonna have a [unclear], who wants to come over, we’re throwing a party. And the same thing goes for Christmas, like, I have $100, you know, in my account, or I have $1,000, or I got a Christmas bonus, let’s spend it, let’s spend all of it. Let’s show our kids how much we love them through spending. So how did you come to be frugal?

[JEN]:
Well, I feel like that mentality kind of crosses cultural barriers. When we come to the holidays, or when we get bonuses, unexpected money, I think we want to make the most of it. And for many of us, that means spending it on something, that’s like the first thing you go to, because that’s kind of what we’re conditioned to think. And that was a very similar story for me. When my husband and I got married, we had $78,000 of mostly student loan debt, a little bit of a car, and he was unemployed, I was under employed. We had spent all of our savings on this wedding and decided, hey, let’s pay off our debt. And I was reluctantly on board because I didn’t want to spend my 20s like living under a rock, wasting “the best years of my life”, living really cheaply and not having any fun. And so that’s what I thought of it.

And so, but we went anyway, because I was a newlywed, and I was like, I’ll do whatever you want, hon. I still love you unconditionally. So we did that. And that journey is what taught me about frugality. Because I was cheap but it was living in a scarcity mindset kind of cheap. And this process of paying off $78,000 of debt on really average incomes, with no windfall, no help from anybody. The process was super hard, and it’s the difficult things that really refine us. And so we ended up paying that off in just under two years.

[VERONICA]:
Wow.

[JEN]:
Yeah. So that journey, long story short is what taught me to be frugal, versus just being cheap and living in a scarcity mindset.

[VERONICA]:
I appreciate you using that word, scarcity mindset. Here’s why. We go into panic whenever we hear that, we go into panic, wait, I mean, I’m going to be restricted, I’m not gonna be able to do all the things I want to do. And sure there’s a goal but I mean, let’s go out, let’s do all these things versus trying to, you know, refrain from doing anything at all. And so it sounds like you really, you really thought about, okay, what’s the goal? What’s the intention? How long will it take us to get there? And let’s work together as a team. So it didn’t sound like it was like this hell.

[JEN]:
Yeah, I mean, it was hard. I’m not gonna sugarcoat it. It was not fun, for sure. So I don’t want you to hear this and think that it was, it was way easier than I thought. But the truth is, I didn’t think I had the money to pay off my debt. And then once I got started, and we gained momentum, I realized I did have the money, but I was spending it. I was, I was spending it. I thought I didn’t have any money to save, yet, I always had money for Starbucks, or a candle from Bath and Bodyworks, stuff like that. And so when I put it into perspective, started paying attention to my expenses, I realized I had money to pay off my debt and save. I was just putting it in different places because of my mindset.

[VERONICA]:
Bingo. My husband and I ended up doing Dave Ramsey, debt free completely. I’m so so thankful.

[JEN]:
Congrats.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah, it was amazing and hell all at the same time.

[JEN]:
Yeah, absolutely. That’s exactly how I would describe it.

[VERONICA]:
So what would you say…? So Christmas is here, right? I can’t believe we’re here, and we’re here. So what do we do? Like what do you, what are some common mistakes we make as parents?

[JEN]:
Yeah. So this is our second Christmas as parents. And so we have the luxury of our child not really caring about the gifts yet, we actually wrapped up some birthday gifts that were a little old for him. And those are going to be his Christmas presents.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah, he don’t know.

[JEN]:
Yeah. But like, I can totally see where I, I don’t just care about myself anymore for Christmas. It’s about like, these family memories. And I want to create an experience that isn’t just memorable for him. So and I have all of these memories from my childhood. So my nostalgia is playing a part in the kind of Christmas I want to give my son and family. And so that can come up, whether your thoughts about the holidays are positive or negative. So I have some positive memories. But I also have some negative because my dad died while I was in high school. And so for a while, the holidays were not joyful for me. So I would spend out of kind of like a little depression, it was very depressing.

And so you have to realize where your feelings and thoughts around the holidays come into how you spend, whether you have kids or not. But especially when you have kids because it totally, it takes the holidays away from just wanting to spend money to make it good for other people. So that’s something I’ve had to keep in check is to put it into perspective and realize the holiday isn’t about spending money. And the feelings can be created, positive feelings can be created without spending money, and positive memories. So yeah, that’s kind of how I’ve been handling it.

[VERONICA]:
Okay, I appreciate you saying that there’s emotions involved. I mean, yeah, I’m aware of that. However, when I’m buying all of these things, I never stopped and thought like, hey, this is emotional buying. It’s more of I want this to be the best holiday ever. You know? And right now, as you say that I think about you know, some of my Christmases in the past, where my dad totally stole like a tree from like, one of the tree lots. I’m not kidding, it happened. Because we were broke. We were so broke. And I remember I think it was like the day of or Christmas Eve, I’ll have to ask my mom. But we were so broke. My dad ended up jumping over the fence, and this was years ago police officers, so you can’t charge him. But like, yeah, I remember him jumping over the fence and getting a tree for us because we just didn’t have it. And then I remember going with my parents the night before, Christmas Eve, I remember going with my parents on Christmas Eve to buy our gifts because my dad had just gotten paid. And so me not wanting to repeat that, I’ve noticed I’ve gone above and beyond. We’re like, we’re looking at the time and our kids are still opening gifts. So what would you say, kind of going back to that question, what would you say is another common mistake that us parents make because, no lie, my kids probably have like 20 gifts? Not anymore. Dave Ramsey taught me better. However, however, I’ve noticed that it’s not only me, it’s also my friends and my family that, you know, well, we worked hard, and we want to make sure that our kids have everything.

[JEN]:
Yeah, definitely. And it’s certainly not bad to spend because of your emotions, thoughts, feeling nostalgic around the holidays. But it’s important to identify like, why you’re spending, identify what those feelings and memories are, and to separate yourself from your mental reality and like your physical reality. So just separate them so you have some perspective. And so you can say, hey, yes, I want to go above and beyond this year so I’m going to budget for it, so that I can fulfill that. So it’s definitely not wrong to, you just have to budget for it. And then if your income doesn’t allow you to budget in the magnitude that you want, then you have to step back and be like, okay, just because I can’t do what I want to do, and spend this amount of money does not mean I’m a bad parent, it does not mean I’m repeating my parents mistakes, yada, yada, yada, so separate yourself from your financial and physical situation.

[VERONICA]:
I love that.

[JEN]:
Yeah. And sometimes it can help, too, so placing some barriers, so that you don’t kind of fall into that like, self comparison trap. So sometimes you can know, okay, this is what I’m supposed to do, I’m supposed to separate myself from the feelings and the reality, but it can still be hard to follow through. So sometimes we have to set up parameters that help us follow through with what we know we should be doing. And so sometimes I’ll recommend people go shopping with a prepaid card, like a gift card. So if you know, you want to, you know, buy your kids toys from Walmart, or, gosh, I almost said, Toys R Us, that’s not a thing anymore.

[VERONICA]:
I know, that’s so sad.

[JEN]:
Whatever. Yeah. So get a gift card like in advance. And then you know, you can only shop at this store and you can only shop this much. And so that sets some physical boundaries, that a credit or debit card really can’t, well, your debit card can, but it shouldn’t. So, doing that, and you can find discounted gift cards online, they won’t save you a ton, but you can also stack them on top of like coupons. So I like that. And then another would just be to try and translate the price of what budget you’re setting into the amount of hours you’re working. So sometimes it can really, it can be easy to spend a lot to go into debt over the holidays, when you’re not putting that into perspective. So like $20 may not seem like a lot, but if that’s what you’re making after taxes, or say you’re only making $10 after all the taxes are, you know, that’s, that’s one or two hours of work to buy about one $20 gift for that coworker that you don’t even really care about, that you just think is gonna get you a gift. And eventually the gift’s gonna end up in their closet or a thrift store, and vice versa.

So think about what your time is worth, like you’re going to this job that maybe you don’t even really like, you have to because you have to pay the bills. And so do you want to work an extra hour or two for that one person that you’re getting a gift for?

[VERONICA]:
Oh, no, no, they ain’t getting a gift.

[JEN]:
Yeah. Put it into perspective and set those boundaries. Gifts are not tit for tat, they are giving without expecting anything in return. And that’s a mental barrier that a lot of people have to work to overcome around the holidays, that you should be giving without expecting anything in return. And you should be receiving without expecting to give in return. You have to set your priorities for who you’re giving, for gifts and for parties, etc. Anything that’s going to cost you money around the holidays.

[VERONICA]:
I love that gift card idea. You know, making sure you have an already set budget and going into the store because yeah, you’re definitely tied to that budget. What would you say, so how much? So I have, I’d like you to give it to me. How much would you say, so I have three girls. Three kids, 18, 13 and 10, oh my god, I’m gonna have a heart attack. Anyway, so I have three girls, how much should I be spending on each kid? Is it dependent on age? Is it dependent on who’s my favorite? I mean, [unclear] listen to this so it’s just between you and me. I’m just kidding. But what would you say is the, like, the average per kid, per age, and gender?

[JEN]:
Yeah. So it really depends on your income and expenses. So I wouldn’t give anybody like a percentage or a number, because it really is so individual. But I would say, give your children gifts that they will have for the rest of the year or until the next time you’re giving them gifts. Studies have shown that that young children will play with more toys, the fewer toys they have. And YouTube has shown us that kids will play with trash over toys.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah, amen.

[JEN]:
Yeah, and in my real life experience. So put it into perspective. And don’t just get gifts because they’re on sale, don’t just get them because your kids asked for them. Don’t just get them because you think it’s you know, gonna make you look cool. Like put thought into your gifts, and that probably means you buy fewer gifts. And, and you can even, you can outsource this task of figuring out what gifts to get for your kids to make sure they’re really meaningful, and they will really be used. So definitely, always quality over quantity.

[VERONICA]:
Hey, ladies, if you’re enjoying this episode, stop what you’re doing. Take a screenshot and share it on your social media. Do not forget to tag me. I will share your share on my Instagram stories. I absolutely love hearing from you all and seeing the positive changes you are making in your life.

[VERONICA]:
So these kids, and I’m sure I’m sure my listeners have the same issue. These kids have all of the things, all the things. We have no idea, I’m gonna tell you right now. I have no idea what I’m gonna get them. Like zero. My daughter, Brooklyn, she has all of the LOL dolls, the Van, they have chore money, Dave Ramsey, so they have chore money, so they’ll buy it, or they’ll use their gift cards and buy the things that they want. Or if I’m being completely honest, I’ll buy it. So they have so much already. And so when a kid has pretty much everything, what do you do? Because now I feel like I’m just going to be making up stuff. Like I haven’t thought, hmm, maybe, my husband and I took a trip to Lake Tahoe to celebrate our 20th, 21st, 20th, is it 21st? Whatever, anniversary, and I was like, hey, you know what? We should buy the kids mountain bikes, like, this is so cool, the next time, because we’re thinking about buying a house over there. You know, why don’t we buy them mountain bikes? And then it’s like, well, we’re gonna have to if we buy the mountain bikes, we’re also gonna have to buy them something else, because we want to be those cool parents. So talk me down off the ledge because I’m already like, a grand deep right now. So where do I go?

[JEN]:
Yeah, no, I mean, I hear this all all the time. Because when your kids have everything, that’s when you end up getting them just stuff to put under the tree, stuff to put in boxes to wrap.

[VERONICA]:
Amen.

[JEN]:
And that’s when you, that’s when you waste money. So for that I like to use, honestly, I like to use birthdays and Christmases as a way to gift experiences. Because yeah, kids are going to buy themselves stuff with their allowances and their gift cards, they’re going to buy themselves what they want. And that’s an empowering lesson, they should be doing that. So then when it comes to Christmases and birthdays, you can really give them experiences that they can’t think to buy for themselves, or that are collective experiences that they couldn’t afford with their allowance money. So this is an opportunity for you to challenge them to think bigger about what their money can buy them. And not bigger as in more expensive but just to challenge them to think hey, you love this LOL doll and this is what you want to spend your money on, and this is what I spent the money on and it’s this cool like weekend trip that we’re all taking as a family.

[VERONICA]:
So you want me to go on a trip for Christmas? Is that what you’re telling me? I’m not lying because I was thinking about it. We were, I think Hawaii just opened up, so.

[JEN]:
Get creative as long as it fits in the budget that you’ve written.

[VERONICA]:
Oh, yeah. Dave Ramsey, word. You can’t pay for it cash, you can’t do it. Okay. Okay. I like that. So, how do, so how do we go…? So, I’m liking what I’m hearing. And I’m thinking about the experience. I love that you gave me that idea. Okay, so I’m buying my kids an experience without any Christmas gifts, because that’s the part that I struggle with. Like, okay, wait, man, girl, like, we’re gonna be in a hotel room, waking up to the experience but no presents under the tree.

[JEN]:
Right. It’s a hard mental block to get across. I know last year, our Christmas tree had two gifts under it.

[VERONICA]:
Oh my gosh, I love you. Dave Ramsey would be all over you.

[JEN]:
But spoiler, we interviewed Chris Hogan on our podcast the other day. And we were talking about things we would buy if money were no object and I was like, I’ll buy the [unclear] wine advent calendar, that’s 70 bucks. And Chris Hogan’s like, I’m so disappointed, I would get a 2020 Harley Davidson, and I’m like oh, oh, we could think that big?

[VERONICA]:
We could think that big?

[JEN]:
Yeah. So I think Dave Ramsey would definitely support a tree full of gifts if you can afford them. But it is hard, like, if you want to gift something that can’t be wrapped, yeah, that’s a hard mental barrier to get over, to see a tree without a lot of presents underneath. And so maybe you do get a few gifts that can be wrapped. But once you do it one year, and then the whole family knows what to expect, then it becomes common, and then it’s normal, then it’s not weird. So it just has to be weird one time, and you just have to get over it one time. And you’re still giving a great gift, a gift that they’ll like way more than the plastic stuff that’s gonna be in the back of their closet one day.

[VERONICA]:
I love that you’ve, it was a little quick gut punch. But I love that you just said that. Because it’s true. We have a playroom full of toys, full of toys. I don’t know how many times I go in there with a big old trash bag, you know, so that I can donate to other kids because they just have so many. And when I’m putting it in the bag, I’m remembering how much it cost me. And it’s like, oh my gosh, are you kidding me? You know. And it was because I wanted to fill. I wanted to fill the tree. I wanted to make sure that the tree was really really big, full of all of these gifts so my kids didn’t feel like, I don’t know. So my kids didn’t feel like they didn’t have a good Christmas. But at the same time, like right now, as you’re saying all of this, I realize, well, they did have a good Christmas because we were there with them. And it was memorable because we’re all together laughing and you know, enjoying each other’s company. But I think we all lose sight, lose sight of, I hate to sound so cliche, but like, totally the true meaning of Christmas.

[JEN]:
And we all know it in the back of our head.

[VERONICA]:
I know. It’s like right there. Dr. Seuss said that [unclear].

[JEN]:
Yeah. Marketing is very convincing that we need more than each other to have that beautiful Christmas picture. And they spend millions, billions of dollars of marketing to make us think that we need more, and some, and yes, more can enhance our experience. But it does not enhance it when we get to January and we realize we’ve got credit card debt, or we’re behind on our bills, or what have you. And so remember that January is coming a week after Christmas, it will be here, your rent or your mortgage will be due. And you want to give yourself the gift of self care in that regard that you’re not going to be worrying about Christmas after Christmas. Enjoy it and embrace it and have the satisfaction of knowing once it’s over, that it’s not following you or haunting you.

[VERONICA]:
Ooh, I love that you just said that. It’s not haunting you. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard that with parents in my private practice. And even some of the women that I coach, that it’s like, I try to do everything and it costs me so much money that I didn’t even have.

[JEN]:
Yeah, it’s, I mean, it happens to everyone. Everyone has gone through it. It’s just taking that action and letting it be weird for a little bit and then getting over it and then the next year, it’s not weird anymore. It’s normal. But you just have to commit to saying like, I’m going to, I’m going to create a budget. I’m going to stick to it. And this is what it’s going to be like this year. And we’re in a great year actually right now, because I think a lot of people are going to be more empathetic and gracious about saving money. So if you’re thinking about spending less and creating boundaries, this is a really great year to do it.

[VERONICA]:
I love that. So where do we start? Where do we start with setting the boundary?

[JEN]:
So first, you have to know where you’re at financially. And so I have a debt free Christmas planner that I’ll give all of your listeners access to, I know you’re gonna link to it, but it’s modernfrugality.com/christmas. And so this is a place where you can set all of your, everything you want to spend on the holidays, you can track everything that you want to budget, and then as you spend it, you can track your spending. So first, you have to know what you can spend, what you want to spend, and then track what you are spending so you can get a real picture. And maybe this isn’t your year to go under budget. Maybe you’ve spent years and years with these debt ridden Christmases, and you finally want to make a change, but you’re not at the place where you can have two gifts under your tree, that’s totally okay. Just get better. And then next year, you can get even better. So just making progress is enough. But you want to get it all planned out on paper, not just digitally, but on paper.

[VERONICA]:
Why on paper?

[JEN]:
Writing goals and budgets and stuff on paper, when you’re first starting out, there’s this cognitive connection, like between your brain and your hand writing it down, that just makes it concrete. You don’t have to do it, you know, forever on paper. But when you’re first starting out and getting used to it, on paper makes it real, makes it tangible. And we are more connected to things that are tangible. So getting it all out there, and then tracking it as you go. But tracking your spending and budgeting are two separate things. A lot of people will think they’re the same thing but they are different. So you have to do both, and then commit to the tracking falling in line with the budget.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah, and making sure that you share this with your partner so you guys are both on the same page. Right?

[JEN]:
Yes. And if one of you isn’t on the same page, that’s a great point, because a lot of the time one spouse will not be on board. And that’s just, that’s just emotional baggage that they have. They have to work through, it’s not negative, but you just have to be a little bit more gracious and not feel like they are holding you back from anything. They’re not. You’re a team. And so they’re not at the same place as you are. So you have to step back a little bit and, you know, be gracious with them. Because people, our spouses will catch up with us when we are gracious and inspiring them to do better, versus making them feel bad or making them feel like we’re annoyed. So.

[VERONICA]:
Yep, or even shaming them.

[JEN]:
Absolutely, yeah.

[VERONICA]:
And, you know, I love this. And I love your freebie that you’re giving to the audience, because I feel like we can use this as a family. So we can get the kids on board as long, you know, because I have older kids. So you know, okay, so you have you know, who do you want to go out and purchase gifts for? Applying that same role of you know, you’re giving without expecting to receive and vice versa. And so who are the people you really, really do want to give to? Who are your top five or whatever? And then take it from there. Okay, so what is your budget? How much can you set aside, you know, your chore money or whatever? Or are you picking up more chores, I hope they pick up more chores, you know, so that you can purchase these items? Oh, my God, I love this, because then we’re all on page doing the same thing.

[JEN]:
Mm hmm, absolutely. And older kids should be involved with this, that’s great, because then they can start to see, I don’t know, maybe your 18 year old has like six friends she wants to buy gifts for but her allowance will only allow her to buy four. And then she has the option of working more or just setting those with those two friends that don’t get gifts. And so they can start to like hone in and create these habits for when they’re not living in your house anymore. So this is an amazing thing to start planning with your kids. Because I know a lot of families don’t want to involve the kids in the whole family, the entire income and expenses and all that, they don’t want to burden their kids with stuff like that. And so if that’s you, and you just want to do it with Christmas, this is a great way to introduce your kids to financial planning.

[VERONICA]:
Absolutely. Yeah, we had Aliyah do Financial Peace University right after she graduated high school and she’s like thinking I’m gonna go live it up, I’m gonna do my apartment or my dorm, I’m gonna do this and it’s like no, girlfriend. You don’t even have any money.

[JEN]:
You’re a broke college student. Welcome.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah. Dad and I are good. Dad and I are great. However, you are broke. You are broke.

[JEN]:
I love that. Yes. That season. So refining, so healthy.

[VERONICA]:
So Jen, where can we find you?

[JEN]:
So I am at modernfrugality.com, on YouTube on Instagram. If you are a podcast listener, which I’m assuming you are, check me out with my good friend Jill on the Frugal Friends podcast. We have a new episode out every Friday. And definitely if you want access to all of that, modernfrugality.com/christmas, we’ll get you that free planner and weekly updates.

[VERONICA]:
Yay. And are you on Instagram, Facebook, all of it?

[JEN]:
All of it, at Modern Frugality.

[VERONICA]:
Okay, perfect. My last question, what would you say to the mom who feels stressed and disconnected about the holidays?

[JEN]:
Hmm. First, give yourself grace, you are not a machine. And you, yeah, you will probably not be able to live up to the unreal expectation that you are setting for yourself. Because that expectation has been set by the internet and the internet is an algorithm. And it’s showing you all of the perfection, all the good stuff. So set boundaries for yourself. No, this is what I’m capable of. This is what I want to be capable of. And this is what I don’t need to, I don’t. It doesn’t matter to my family. So take time for yourself. Invest in self care. And know that there is no perfect family. No perfect Christmas. We all got skeletons in our closet, trunks of our cars, you know, everywhere. So you just have to, you only get one life to live so don’t waste it being stressed out and overworked.

[VERONICA]:
Oh, Jen, thank you so much for being on. This was absolutely amazing. I know it was totally last minute. But I was like, I need her in my life.

[JEN]:
I could have been a crazy person though, because this was so last minute.

[VERONICA]:
No, I looked you up, girl. I looked you up.

[JEN]:
Thanks so much for having me on.

[VERONICA]:
Absolutely, absolutely.

[VERONICA]:
What’s up, ladies? Just want to let you guys know that your ratings and reviews for this podcast are greatly appreciated. If you love this podcast, please go to iTunes right now and rate and review. Thank you, guys.

Many women lose their own identity in the shadow of being a mom and a wife. We are a community of women who support each other. We leave perfectionism behind to become empowered and unapologetic. I know you’re ready for the next steps. If you want to become empowered and unapologetic, get my free course, Unapologetically Me over at empoweredandunapologetic.com/course.

This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, Practice of the Practice, or the guests, are providing legal, mental health, or other professional information. If you need a professional, you should find one.