[VERONICA]: Empowered and Unapologetic is part of the Practice of the Practice Podcast Network, a family of podcasts that changed the world. To hear other podcasts like the Bomb Mom podcast, Beta Male Revolution, or Imperfect Thriving, go to practiceofthepractice.com/network. Have you ever thought, how did I manage to lose myself? Being a mom is so hard, especially when we’re feeling stressed and disconnected. We exhaust ourselves trying to create this perfect life for our family. You deserve to enjoy your marriage and your kids, without the stress perfectionism brings. I am going to teach you how to identify who you are, outside of all of the roles you play. Hi, I’m Veronica Cisneros. I’m a wife, mother of three, and a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. I am on a mission to teach women just like you how to become empowered and unapologetic. Welcome to our girl gang. Hey, ladies. Welcome to Empowered and Unapologetic. I’m your host, Veronica Cisneros. I met our guest when we both were employed at an intensive outpatient program. We instantly became besties. Today’s guest has been a licensed clinical psychologist for close to 17 years. She studied at UCLA, and Pepperdine, then worked on the adolescent unit of an inpatient psychiatric hospital. She spent the majority of her career providing services in an adolescent group home and ran a small private practice. More recently, she has been running group therapy with an intensive outpatient population and is expanding her private practice. She is a single mom of two children, and made that transition after a 20 year marriage. Through all the challenges that her transition brought her, she learned a lot about herself, and redefined who she is more authentically and congruent with her soul. Although this was not easy, and she admits it will always be a work in progress, she states, as with any transition, comes an opportunity for growth. And that growth has afforded her the kind of happiness that makes this turn of the earth worth living. Her goal is to assist others in their transition, so they get the same opportunity to live their best life. So please help me by welcoming Dr. Penelope Underwood, and owner of a local private practice. Hey, Dr. Penny. [PENELOPE]: Hi. Thanks for having me. [VERONICA]: Absolutely. I am so thankful that you’re here with us. This is amazing. I haven’t seen you in like forever. [PENELOPE]: I know, I miss you. [VERONICA]: I miss you too, like, for reals. [PENELOPE]: Things aren’t the same without you [VERONICA]: No they’re not. I believe it. We’re gonna try to stay on topic, guys. But… [PENELOPE]: Well, we are besties for a reason. [VERONICA]: So I want to start by saying that I’m so impressed by your ability to lean into fear and challenge, and challenge those fears. And it was so crazy because the minute I told the women in our community, that girl gang, you know, who I was hosting, or who I was interviewing, and what the topic was going to be on, holy moly, I was flooded with messages, like literally flooded with so many messages, because I feel like a lot of us moms feel so stuck in attempting to be this level of perfection for everyone. And in addition to that, I feel like we give so much to everyone and we lose our identity in the process. [PENELOPE]: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. I think we buy into that narrative that we are a mom, and a wife, and we have the home, and we have the kids, and you know, some of us have jobs on top of that. And so we’re trying to balance this perspective of ourselves. That’s really overwhelming at times, and I think in that process you do lose who you are because you’re like, I have to fit the script. [VERONICA]: Yes, yes. And I think at the same time, we lose ourselves and then, we also suffer silently because we tell no one, and we keep it to ourselves. And we do all the things, and we try to be everything in our relationship, we try to be everything to our children, and at the same time, I guess, our relationship suffers in one way, shape, or form. And I think there are times when women attempt to communicate with their spouses that some form of change needs to happen. However, I also believe that we do lack some of the skills to be able to communicate effectively, and even get to this place of vulnerability to speak our truth. [PENELOPE]: Sure. I think that’s definitely a big factor in my marriage. I felt that there were times when I would try to communicate what I needed, and I felt like there were some times where that would be heard and some changes would be adjusted or made. But they weren’t like… they didn’t last very long. And so then I was kind of stuck back where I was. And I kind of learned to keep my mouth shut at that point, because it’s not rewarded, that communication. And so then, I also didn’t really want to admit to myself that I was unhappy because I wanted to live that narrative, that dream that we all have. So I kept denying to myself how unhappy I was. And it wasn’t until I said it out loud to another good girlfriend of mine that I realized, oh, I really am not happy. Like, this is a real thing. Instead of just pretending that, man, okay, we’re great. [VERONICA]: Yes. So what do you think that was that you gave yourself permission to be able to say those words out loud? Because you’re taking a big risk. You mentioned judgment, you mentioned that this is not the norm, and we try to go ahead and live by the norm, whatever the hell the norm is. And so when we say this out loud, we’re not only saying it out loud to ourselves, but we’re now admitting it. [PENELOPE]: Yeah, once it’s out there, then you have to own it. It’s a reality you have to face. It’s not something you can, for me at least, it wasn’t something I could keep putting under the rug. I had to go, oh, this is real. And it’s kind of funny what got me there, like, I think I was growing mentally and physically because I had joined a CrossFit gym. And that may sound silly, but there was something about me discovering that I could do things that I never thought I could do before. [VERONICA]: Yes, yes. [PENELOPE]: It pushed me mentally too. So physically, I’m getting outside of my comfort zone and my mind was starting to follow. I can remember, right around the same time we went on this vacation, in fact, it was right after I had finally admitted that I wasn’t happy to my girlfriend, there was this creek in the back of this location we were at. And I can remember being brave, and jumping these rocks and kind of hopping around… it was a river actually, not a creek. And I remember thinking to myself, I never would have done that before. It’s something as simple as that; I would have been too afraid that I was going to fall in. And now suddenly, I wasn’t afraid. So these little moments started to make me realize that I was more capable than I gave myself credit for. And stuff like I was climbing ropes at the gym. Now, that’s not something you can do on your own. But suddenly, after years of training and experience, I was doing that. So my mind thought, well, what else is possible? So when I finally verbalized it, I didn’t make a plan right then. It was still a process that had to evolve, but it was the start. It was a significant start. [VERONICA]: Yeah, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. There were little steps that you were taking and as you leaned in and took those steps, it was then that you realized, wait a minute, I could do this. And I’m making an active choice to take this step. I’m making an active choice to lean into some of that self doubt, maybe some of that fear, or whatever other things come up for all of us when we’re doing something new. And, you know, I appreciate you saying that, because for so many women, they’re stuck in it, and we don’t want to try anything different. Because, okay, if we try something different, and it fails, then what? I have, in my private practice, I don’t know how many times I hear women say out loud, you know, wait a minute. I’m here, I’m working on myself, I’m starting to feel empowered, I’m starting to feel that it’s okay for me to say no, and it’s okay for me to decide how I want to live my life. But wait a minute, what if he doesn’t agree? And what if, what if – and this is where they get really tearful and it gets really really intense – what if I make all these changes, and I pursue this life, and he doesn’t join me? [PENELOPE]: Well, that’s the big challenge, right? Because I do feel like if one partner is growing and the other partner refuses to grow, or can’t grow, doesn’t want to grow, then there becomes that division. And then it becomes that fear of the unknown. Because as that separation happens, you probably are going to start moving towards, I need something different. And that’s where the tears are coming from, because it’s, I don’t know what that looks like. That’s redefining everything about your life. When you start to think about it, it becomes overwhelming. It’s redefining your identity as a mother, as a wife, what that means for your family of origin, what it means for your peers. [VERONICA]: Yes. [PENELOPE]: It changes all of that. And so it becomes overwhelming and we stay. Instead of just going back to what’s one step in front of the other? What’s the next right step for me in this moment? It doesn’t have to be, I’m going from this identity to that. It doesn’t work like that. It’s a work in progress and giving yourself that permission to just stay in the moment and keep that growth going. Because what’s the alternative? To not grow. To stay stuck. [VERONICA]: Yes. Yes. And one question I ask often is, imagine you living this life again next year. Imagine you repeating this year all over again, like, can you do that? Can you really do that? Whether it be in your marriage, whether it be with where you’re at, physically, mentally, emotionally? Can you repeat this year again? And I’m often met with hell no, hell no, I can’t, I can’t. There’s no way I would survive. And it’s like, okay, well, then. This is… yes, I agree. This is scary. This is scary. And it’s uncomfortable. However, what’s the alternative? I love that you said that, what is the alternative? And so, another thing that I want to definitely hit on is you mentioning, whenever you would communicate these things, it would only change for a brief moment, and then it would go revert back to the same old, unhealthy behaviors. And in so many ways, we’re both a part of that dance. [PENELOPE]: Right, right. Because I continue to not be insistent. If I come to someone and I say, this is what I need from you, and this is why I need this from you. And they hear that and then they make that change and then revert back, and I allow it, then I’m contributing to the dynamic, right? I’m saying that my boundary doesn’t matter. It only matters for a little bit. And so I play a role in that too. There’s part of me that accepted that, okay, you just need to suck it up. You need eye contact, and you need a hello and goodbye and I love you’s, then you need to suck that up that you don’t get that. And then it starts to… it eats away at you, because that’s not being authentic to who I am. I am that person that needs that connection. And I won’t speak poorly about my ex husband because I feel like he’s just a different human being than I am. [VERONICA]: Absolutely. [PENELOPE]: And his needs are different than mine. And that’s part of the reason why this divorce was so painful because there were no obviously good guys, bad guys, in it. But there was something that I needed that wasn’t natural to him. And so I’m just trying to tell myself, I don’t need it. I don’t need it. You don’t need it. Why do you need that? And then it just kind of belittles myself, it belittles my perspective, so I get lost. [VERONICA]: Absolutely. And I think, you know, you mentioned, you’re stressing on needs, right? We’re able to go ahead and meet our own needs with the work that we do on ourselves. And at the same time, having this teammate, having this individual that supports and that encourages, and not someone that we necessarily need to go ahead and babysit, or need to go ahead and carry along the way. But just somebody that can be there. And so oftentimes I’ll say, in a relationship, it’s important for us to be independent so that way we can be interdependent, right? [PENELOPE]: Yes. Yes. [VERONICA]: And if you’re doing all of these things, if you’re growing, and it sounds like for you, it’s like, I want to know what’s the next step. I don’t want to stay here stagnant. I want to go ahead and pursue something in addition to where we’re currently at. The family’s great, you know, I don’t have anything against him. However, there has to be something more. And I am not… I feel like I’m not allowing myself to even find out what more is, and not to say that this was another person, but it sounds like it’s… I need to know there’s more to life and I need to know that I can participate in this life. However, I don’t feel like I could participate in it right now. [PENELOPE]: Well, I mean, I think that my relationship was a microcosm for my experiences and engagement with the rest of the world. Like, it’s not just my relationship that this dynamic is playing out in. It was playing out in my work. It’s playing out in my family of origin, and that’s a fancy way of saying our own parents and siblings. [VERONICA]: Absolutely. [PENELOPE]: So it was playing out in all areas where I wasn’t seeing myself as capable. And so instead, we get caught up in every day, I’m going to do the laundry, I’m going to make the house perfect, I’m going to get all my chores done, because I’m just focused on what I could get control of, but I had this constant anxiety going, because not being honest about… there’s got to be more to life than laundry, and house cleaning, and taking care of the kids, and getting them to practices. And once I started to face that I am more capable than I thought, then it was like oh, my god, I kind of like this. You know, this is nice. And I wanted my partner to come with me, tried to get my partner to come with me, invited him to the gym with me, and just try to explore these hikes with me. And that wasn’t happening. Had he wanted to, we might have been able to grow together. And that would have been beautiful, that would have been ideal. But that wasn’t what he wanted. So in some ways, it’s a respect that we weren’t a match. Maybe at one point in our lives, we were a better match, I will say that. But at this point, we no longer were. And so yeah, your point about like, I’m not living. I wasn’t living. Or I was living… I was just existing. [VERONICA]: Yes. ________________________________________ [VERONICA]: Hey, ladies, if you’re enjoying this episode, stop what you’re doing. Take a screenshot and share it on your social media. Do not forget to tag me. I will share your share on my Instagram stories. I absolutely love hearing from you all, and seeing the positive changes you are making in your life. ________________________________________ [VERONICA]: And I’m so glad you were able to go ahead and comment as to it wasn’t just in my marriage. I wasn’t growing in life. And I think that’s where a lot of us get stuck, is we think it’s only in our marriage. Well, it’s, you know, I’m just not happy in my marriage and it’s because my husband doesn’t want to do anything. He wants to spend all of his days on TV, or gaming, or whatever it is, in sports. Well, you’re a part of that, too. And as you start to take these steps and accomplish these new experiences that you never thought, or would have imagined you would have completed, it now gives you a whole different perspective. And I love that you said, I would invite, and although he wanted to do it, it wasn’t a match. And so, I gotta ask, how do you know when to call it quits? Like, what is it? How do you know, okay, well, what does this look like in a healthy way? Because a question I often get is, well, if I leave, well, I can’t do this to the kids. And if I leave, how am I going to do this financially? How am I going to do this? How am I going to support the kids? Where am I going to get babysitting? What if he gets so mad at me and makes this horrible, awful divorce. So all of these questions happen. And then what the aftermath looks like is people stay stagnant, stuck, and suffering silently. So how do we know when it’s time to call it quits? [PENELOPE]: Right? I think that that’s not an easy question to answer. And I think it’s really going to depend on each person. When I got this question beforehand, I thought about it and I thought, you have to make a choice that’s healthy for you. Not the safe choice – those are not the same. [VERONICA]: Please explain the difference. Please explain the difference. [PENELOPE]: Well, a safe choice is a way to bind your anxiety, meaning I’m going to stay in my marriage because it’s easier, because I don’t know how to do all the things that you just listed off, or to leave my marriage because it’s easier. I can blame him for all my problems, the grass is greener on the other side and I can go over there and live this life. Those are safe choices, given you’re making two different choices, right? [VERONICA]: Yes. Totally different. [PENELOPE]: They’re totally different, yet they’re the same motivation. But if you look at making the healthy choice, what is going to get me to a place where I am more authentic, I am living for me? That is a gift that we give to our children too. [VERONICA]: Yes. [PENELOPE]: So, I think people always talk about the trauma that comes from divorce. But what about the trauma of staying in an unhealthy marriage, of not being authentic? Of not learning how to manage your own fears and anxiety? That piece is the more critical question to ask. So your choice will become clear as you start to answer those questions. [VERONICA]: Yes. And I’ve had conversations with some other friends that are in this phase of life where they’re not sure if they’re gonna stay or go, and you just hit on something so profound. My usual comeback is, if you do stay, what are you teaching your children? If you do stay, what are you teaching your children? And yes, I get, you know, everybody wants everybody to stay together. I get that. I respect it. I totally respect it. And at the same time, you just hit on something, and you said it beautifully, you know, what is the end result? What does that look like for our children? And what are we teaching them? I didn’t use your words, but that’s just kind of what resonated with me. And we end up… you know, I’ve seen it happen on so many occasions, especially working with adolescents, well, my mom stayed. And my mom’s upset because I’m going out with her ex, or I’m going out with my dad, because I’m having the same relationship that my parents have, and my mom’s upset with me and she’s told me all of the things not to do. However, she never showed me. She never showed me. [PENELOPE]: I think that damage is going to happen either way. So I’m not advocating for divorce. I’m advocating that you make healthy choices, and if staying and working on your marriage is a healthy choice, by all means, that’s the direction I would encourage anyone to take. But if the healthy choice is for you to move forward, there are benefits that the kids are going to obtain, and you might not even know. For my kids, there were… my son in particular had some anxiety issues, and I watched him evolve as I evolved. So I have a lot of anxiety – here I am, a psychologist. [VERONICA]: Yeah, no, of course. [PENELOPE]: And I had a lot of anxiety, over little things, like, if that person cut me in line, or if there are gonna be the right donut. Stupid stuff. So, I started to find that those things didn’t matter anymore, because they served a function for me. Living in that kind of superficial anxiety kept me from dealing with the fact that I’m not being me. Being me was scary because it wasn’t what everybody wanted or expected out of me. But I created my new normal. And I established new relationships with people that I cared about. And in that process, I watched my son blossom. [VERONICA]: Yes. Yes. [PENELOPE]: And I’m not saying that we’re not all going to go through our own challenges. We’re all going to still suffer from some level of anxiety; that’s part of being human. And as he gets to the teen years in high school, I’m watching him navigate through that pretty exceptionally. But it’s not easy. And that’s a mistake, to assume that oh, it just comes natural, is a mistake. He’s working at it, but I love the work that he does to be okay. And he got that, I want to say, in part, from seeing me do that work. [VERONICA]: Bingo. I was just gonna say that. There’s no way he would have known to go ahead and do these things had he not had it modeled for him. And I don’t know why, but this just hit me: you doing the work, like, doing the physical work helped you do the mental and emotional work. [PENELOPE]: Yes. Yeah, it started it. For sure. [VERONICA]: Yes, absolutely. And that also… so you’re now modeling totally different behavior to your kids. You’re modeling something completely different that they can go ahead and emulate. And so now, they’re doing these new things. And it’s not only for the relationships, it’s for leaning into fear, it’s for challenging any insecurity. So it goes so much farther than just a relationship. [PENELOPE]: Right. Well, even in professional life too. I started to cut off relationships in my professional capacity that were no longer healthy for me. I had this contract through the county where I was providing services and the group arm itself was really good to me, but the contract – the county contract – was not very good to me. They would take money out of my current check, saying that the diagnoses were incorrect even though their system changed. There was always something that was coming up. And their process for billing took me days to do every month. And I thought that I had to do that to be able to survive. That’s my income, I have to do that. What else am I gonna do? Until I was like, no, I have options. What else can I do? And so it isn’t… I love your phrase ‘lean into fear’, because it isn’t that I’m just brave and like nothing bothers me. [Unclear]. It isn’t like that. It is these things elicit fear in me too. And, do I want to stay where I’m at, or do I want to make something different? And if I can go back to what you were saying earlier with your patients, with mine, I’ll say the same thing. I’ll tell the story of what’s scarier to… because I have this story where when my son was a baby, I worked at a hospital, but it was a commute. I was driving an hour and 15 minutes each way, at least, to make this drive. And my son was a baby. And we would go and I would take him there because there was a daycare on the grounds, and then I’d walk from the daycare to the hospital, and every fall this tree would drop these little berries, and I’d love to step on them and squish them. It was fun, right? [VERONICA]: Come on, they’re calling me. [PENELOPE]: Yeah, [unclear] pathway. So I remember one fall, I was so tired of the commute. I was like, this job is taking me from my baby. I don’t like it. It’s 40 hours a week. And I thought to myself, what’s scarier? Going out and trying to make something new, starting private practice and going out on my own? Or stepping on these berries again in a year when they fall next fall? [VERONICA]: Oh, my God, girl. I’m about to cry. Yes. Yes. [PENELOPE]: And for me, when I talk to my patients, I’ll say the same thing. What’s scarier? Do you want to be on my couch again in a year, having the same conversation? Or do you want to put these little things in place to get yourself slowly more comfortable to the direction you’re going to take? [VERONICA]: Yeah. And that’s something only we can decide. And we can have conversations with our spouses or, you know, this doesn’t even necessarily have to just apply to our marriage, it can apply to everything. And when we have these conversations, it’s still up to us on whether we make that move. We can wait all day for permission, and that’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to wait all day, years, for the rest of our life, cuz nobody’s gonna give it to us. Or we can make that active choice, we can make a decision to do something different because that’s what we need. And we are the ones that get to not only make the decision, but we get to go ahead and take those steps to follow through with it. [PENELOPE]: Right, because it then makes us better, which then makes our kids better. Because we’re teaching them not how to avoid storms, but how to navigate through the rain and be okay. [VERONICA]: Absolutely. [PENELOPE]: Yeah. [VERONICA]: What’s up, ladies? Just want to let you guys know that your ratings and reviews for this podcast are greatly appreciated. If you love this podcast, please go to iTunes right now and rate and review. Thank you, guys. Many women lose their own identity in the shadow of being a mom and a wife. We are a community of women who support each other. We leave perfectionism behind to become empowered and unapologetic. I know you’re ready for the next steps. If you want to become empowered and unapologetic, get my free course, Unapologetically Me over at empoweredandunapologetic.com/course. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, Practice of the Practice, or the guests, are providing legal, mental health, or other professional information. If you need a professional, you should find one.