[VERONICA]:
Empowered and Unapologetic is part of the Practice of the Practice Podcast Network, a family of podcasts that changed the world. To hear other podcasts like the Bomb Mom podcast, Beta Male Revolution, or Imperfect Thriving, go to practiceofthepractice.com/network.

Have you ever thought, how did I manage to lose myself? Being a mom is so hard, especially when we’re feeling stressed and disconnected. We exhaust ourselves trying to create this perfect life for our family. You deserve to enjoy your marriage and your kids, without the stress perfectionism brings. I am going to teach you how to identify who you are, outside of all of the roles you play.

Hi, I’m Veronica Cisneros. I’m a wife, mother of three, and a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. I am on a mission to teach women just like you how to become empowered and unapologetic. Welcome to our girl gang.

[VERONICA]:
Hey, ladies. Welcome to Empowered and Unapologetic. I’m your host, Veronica Cisneros. I have to say, this episode is by far going to be one of my favorites. Here’s why: today’s guest’s story is incredible. After finding the courage to say bye bye to her corporate marketing career, she built a six figure virtual assistant business from her tiny house in the middle of a forest. Today she teaches professional women how to create their own work at home virtual assistant and virtual expert businesses so they too can enjoy the freedom, flexibility and financial security they deserve. So please help me by welcoming Kathy Goughenour. Hey, Kathy.

[KATHY]:
Hey, Veronica. Thank you so much for having me on here today. I’m so excited to be here. Your energy just gets me going.

[VERONICA]:
I am super excited. What I was more excited about is the fact that you’re wearing a tiara. I was like please, please, please let her wear this tiara because I read that you wear these tiaras during your coaching calls.

[KATHY]:
I wear my tiaras so much, really, all through work and I’ll forget to take it off after I’m done working. And I have a Peloton bike – I got on my Peloton the other night, biking away and all of a sudden I’m like, why is something feels weird on my head? And I had my tiara on still. So we’ve been having some work done outside, we had a pizza oven built this summer. And I go outside to look at what’s going on and the guys would look at me really funny, like, is it your birthday? I’m like, what? [Unclear] have my tiara on. Then after a while they got used to it, though. But it is really interesting when people don’t know I wear tiaras all the time and I get on a Zoom session with somebody and they’re like, um, is it your birthday? No, I just love wearing tiaras.

[VERONICA]:
You’re like, do your research. Let’s do this. I’m a badass.

[KATHY]:
I am a badass. And I get to do whatever I want to do because I have my own business. And I spent almost 20 years being told that I laughed and smiled too much, and that I had to change who I was. And once I quit that job, I was like, I’m never gonna do anything I don’t want to do again. I’m only gonna do stuff that I enjoy.

[VERONICA]:
So a lot of us don’t believe we have that freedom, don’t believe that we’re even capable of experiencing it. Matter of fact – this is crazy – yesterday… Usually, I start off my groups with, tell me what your successes have been for the week, like, let me know what your highs were. That’s usually how I start off my VIP group. However, I wanted to shake things up. So I asked them, tell me what you want to be when you grow up. And the women in the group range from 35 all the way up to 60. And they looked at me, gave me these crazy eyes and they’re like, well, Veronica, I’m already grown up. And I say no, tell me what you want to be when you grow up. I want to hear it from you. And the minute they started to attempt to answer the question – I say attempt and here’s why – they immediately prefaced it with well, this is a stupid idea. Or this is just crazy. And it’s like, take that out. Let’s just pretend you’re five because when you’re five you’re like, I want to be a teacher. Without hesitation. I want to be a teacher, I want to be an astronaut, I want to be a lawyer, I want to be a biologist…

[KATHY]:
And a movie star.

[VERONICA]:
Right. And a movie star, all at the same time. And tomorrow I might be a model, like, who knows?

[KATHY]:
Yeah.

[VERONICA]:
There’s nothing that holds us back. And so I was reading your story and like I mentioned to you earlier, I had a whole set of questions and then I found you in Forbes, girl. I found you in a Forbes article, and I was like, holy moly. Hmm. Let me go and just read this whole article and that’s when the entire interview shifted for me. So can you please tell us your story? You mentioned, you know, being told you couldn’t giggle?

[KATHY]:
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, like, I think even today, most women… So, by the way, I am 63 now and I’m still going strong. I still have lots and lots of things I want to do when I grow up. So I totally get what you’re talking about there, Veronica. And by the way, I do the same thing in my program; I ask people, if you could be anything you want, if you could have the lifestyle that you want, no matter what it is, what would that be? And they can’t answer it, because they’ve never actually thought about it. They’ve never been asked that question before. They don’t believe it’s really in their control. And that’s where I was. I was raised that you get a corporate job, you get a good degree, you get a corporate job, you stay there forever, you retire, you live off your pension, and you die. That’s how I was raised. And so that’s what I did.

I got a corporate job at a Fortune 500 company. I had an undergraduate degree at the time that this story begins. When I was about 38, I went to my boss and said, I’m not getting promoted anymore, what’s going on? And at that time, he said, you don’t have a masters, you need a masters. So I went back and got my MBA, graduated magna cum laude, went back to work. The next promotion was a girl half my age, because at that time, I was 40, who didn’t have a degree. So I went back in and said, okay, now what’s up? Why didn’t I get that promotion? And he said, do you want to know the truth? Kind of like that, like he was irritated. You want to know the truth? And I said, I wanted to know the truth two years ago when I asked you. And he said, you laugh and smile too much. You’re never going anywhere in this company with that kind of attitude. And I’m like, with a good attitude? And he goes, you’re just too silly. You just have too much fun. So get serious, and then you’ll get promoted. And I went back to my little tiny cubicle and cried.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah.

[KATHY]:
And then I started getting migraines, because I was so stressed thinking about how I needed to change. And then, Veronica, I started reading some books. I started reading books on what you could do with your life, what was really possible. And I started crunching some numbers, and I figured out that I could quit that job, save money because I was driving an hour each way to work, I was having to dress up for work, you know, it was in downtown St. Louis with really expensive parking fees, and on and on and on. And I could actually get, you know, start my own business, not have to worry about making a lot of money and still be okay. And you see how low I set that bar for myself. I didn’t think I could have a six figure business. I didn’t think I could have a million dollar business. I didn’t think I could have a multi million dollar business. I didn’t think of any of those things.

So I went in and gave my notice, a letter of resignation to that boss, and he said, you’re making the biggest mistake you will ever make in your life. You will never make this kind of money again.

[VERONICA]:
Oh my god, where’s he at?

[KATHY]:
And I was just… He’s retired.

[VERONICA]:
Okay, fine.

[KATHY]:
This was, like, 23 years ago. So he’s a very old man now. I mean, I’m old, but he’s very old cuz he was old then. But I thought right then, I thought, you know what, uh, no, I’m not going to just replace this income, I’m going to double this income. And that’s when I decided to become a six figure VA, after I found out about being a virtual assistant, I decided that I’d be six figures. And at that time, nobody had ever made six figures as a virtual assistant. It was a really, really new type of business to have. And everybody says, you can’t make six figures as a virtual assistant. And I’m like, I can, and I did. And I’ve gone on to break other records in the industry and help others do the same. So it’s been really, really fun.

[VERONICA]:
That is amazing. I know my listeners are dying to ask, what was that dang book that you read?

[KATHY]:
Well, it’s a really old one. It’s by Barbara Sher who died recently, and it’s called Wishcraft. Like ‘make a wish’.

[VERONICA]:
Wishcraft.

[KATHY]:
Yeah.

[VERONICA]:
Okay, ladies.

[KATHY]:
It really stepped you through, step by step, what you could do, how to think about… And it wasn’t like, you know, here’s the job you should have, or here’s the career you should have. It just helps you think about it. And the message that I really have for everybody is just exactly what the title of your podcast is. We can all be empowered and authentic. And the more authentic I’ve gotten, the better my business has grown. So you can see me, I have very gray hair, I look every second of 63 years old. And when I was told that I needed to get out there, get on Facebook Live, do videos, do all that kind of stuff, I was like, no way. If people see this old face, nobody’s gonna want to work with me. That was what went through my head. And I had a really good coach, like I know you are, who said, just do it one time and see what happens. That’s how the tiara thing came about. Because I was like, okay, you know me, screw you. I’ll do it. I’ll show you how awful it is. And I had that pair of pajamas on because that’s what I like to work in. I had a little toy – here it is – a little toy tiara on, like from a kid’s birthday party, and I did Facebook Live. And I just talked about, you know, my coach is making me do this and I’m really scared and I’m really old and, you know, here’s what I do for a living. And it just blew up because people said they saw this crazy old lady with a tiara on and they stopped and went, what is that? And they watched it. And now I have a million dollar business with women who also want to really be authentic and enjoy their lives, and you can tell I don’t have makeup on or anything. I never wear makeup.

Now, on my YouTube video, if you want to see some scary stuff, Veronica, go look at my YouTube channel. I’m gonna do a blooper. I’m gonna have my video VA do a blooper series of all the different ways I’ve tried to wear makeup. Because there’s some scary stuff out there, I’m telling you. And also, all the different sizes I’ve been, the different lengths of hair I’ve had, and the bras because my girlfriends did a bra intervention on me a couple of years ago, and showed me where your boobs are really supposed to sit on your body, and where mine were hanging. Now, that’s a good girlfriend, isn’t it?

[VERONICA]:
Yes, it is.

[KATHY]:
Talk about your bras.

[VERONICA]:
They’re not supposed to be here. They’re supposed to be right here.

[KATHY]:
Right? And they were like, you, where they’re supposed to be – up and down – you, where they’re supposed to be. And now I can look at those old videos and see that. I’m like, oh my, why didn’t I notice that?

[VERONICA]:
Had no clue.

[KATHY]:
But I’m not taking them down because it’s too hilarious, like my life over the past 20 years, you know? Oh, look at that crazy woman.

[VERONICA]:
We definitely have to put those in the show notes. We will, we will put those in the show notes.

[KATHY]:
Okay. I saw one the other day and I screamed because the makeup was so bad. I thought it was I think it was a Halloween clown or what, I did my own makeup that day. It was a really bad idea.

[VERONICA]:
So I’m glad you’re mentioning all of this because a lot of us are – and I say us because like I mentioned to you, I’m new to this online world. Group practice, I got done. This online world, holy moly, it’s a monster. And we’re under the impression, like how you were, you know, with your blue tiara, under the impression that we have to show up perfect.

[KATHY]:
Oh yeah.

[VERONICA]:
And what I’ve noticed myself is whenever I’ve looked like this, like what I look like right now, no makeup, hair not brushed, maybe combed with my fingers…

[KATHY]:
You look beautiful.

[VERONICA]:
Um, those were one of my best videos, like, the women just were more drawn to that versus me with my makeup, all done up, hair nicely cut. And I think that’s what a lot of people are missing, is that level of authenticity. And another thing you mentioned was in this article that I read, it was, what one woman can do another one can do. Holy moly, I was like, yes, preach. Here’s why: most of us are under the impression that we have to have a degree, we have to already be, you know, we have to be 25, we have to go back in time. And then in addition to that, we have to look a certain way, we have to be a certain way, we have to be a certain size. And that’s not true. [Unclear].

[KATHY]:
It’s not at all true.

[VERONICA]:
Can you share your thoughts?

[KATHY]:
Yeah, absolutely. I have helped hundreds of women achieve whatever their goal is, whether it’s to, like, I have a lot of moms who want to be – especially right now – help their children with remote learning and have income coming in. So that’s what I teach them how to do, is do it on your own terms, at your own time, and when you’re ready to grow, you can. And we don’t talk about how to wear makeup. We don’t talk about any of that kind of stuff. But all of the people that I have helped, and then I matched them with business owners like you, Veronica, who has a growing business, who’s going to need help. I do matchmaking, so I talk to entrepreneurs, online entrepreneurs, all the time about this, and never once do they ask me, how old is the person? Never once do they ask me, what degree do they have?

[VERONICA]:
No, we don’t care.

[KATHY]:
What race they are? They don’t care.

[VERONICA]:
Can they do the job?

[KATHY]:
Exactly. Can they meet deadlines? Are they proactive? Are they professional? Are they problem solvers? That’s what they want.

[VERONICA]:
Bingo.

[KATHY]:
They don’t care about any of that other stuff. In fact, one of the biggest shockers I had, first of all, I will admit that when I left that corporate job, I had an ego and I didn’t even realize it. I was like, I have 20 years of the corporate world, as a marketing manager, I have an MBA, I am all that, you know, I’m gonna be this hot marketing consultant, I’m gonna make so much money. And, you know, I started off and I told people, you know, I have an MBA and listen, they’re like, they didn’t care about that at all. In fact, they didn’t want to hear about it. So I stopped mentioning it and I changed my title from marketing consultant to virtual assistant, because what they really wanted was somebody to do the work, not tell them how to do the work, which is what a consultant does, and my business took off. I had 70 clients, and I had a team of five VAs working with me to get all the work done. So let go of that ego, let go of any thoughts that it’s your looks or your… because if it was looks, or weight, or age, or…

[VERONICA]:
Girl, stop playing. You’re beautiful. Stop playing.

[KATHY]:
Thank you. But if it was any of that, I would never have gotten anywhere, nobody cares. They don’t care. They really don’t.

[VERONICA]:
You know, it’s interesting that you say that. I find that in the private practice industry, there’s a lot of people that I’ve interviewed, because I’m looking for two new clinicians, and that’s the first thing they tell me. Well, look at my doctorate degree, and look at all of these certificates, and all of this, like, shiny objects and it’s like, I’m sorry, but if you’re sitting across from a client, they don’t care. They don’t care what books you read, they don’t care what degrees or what certificates you have. They want to know that you can help them by understanding them and not trying to change them. That’s what they want to know. If you can really feel their pain, if you can really understand them. Because otherwise, like, those degrees don’t mean anything. Those degrees are for guiding them and you have that level of expertise and knowledge to go ahead and help them with coping skills. But that’s really as far as it goes. If you can’t connect with your client, then it doesn’t matter if you went to kindergarten or you went to Harvard, doesn’t matter.

[KATHY]:
You’re absolutely right. They don’t want you to talk about yourself, not want you to talk about… They want you to care about them, and to ask them questions, and to be curious about them. And that’s the same with business owners. It’s the same with everybody. That’s how people are. If you’re interested in them, if you’re curious about them and willing to solve their problems, they’re going to work with you all day long.

[VERONICA]:
Absolutely.

[VERONICA]:
Hey, ladies, Are you loving this episode? Because if you are, share it with your friends, and then come join me in my private Facebook group, empowered and unapologetic. On this page, I want you to share what your favorite episode was, what lessons have you learned, and what was your greatest takeaway? This community is filled with women just like you.

[VERONICA]:
So one of the biggest hurdles that I found with the women from yesterday’s group was being afraid to pivot. Well, Veronica, I’m gonna turn 40. One of them – my Melanie, I love her – she wants to be a psychiatrist. And she’s like, well, I’m about to turn 40. And it’s like, alright, cool. And she’s like, well, no, that’s gonna take, like, 8 or 10 years. All right, awesome. Those 8 or 10 years are going to happen anyway. What are you going to do 10 years from now? Are you going to sit here thinking, well, I should have done that? Well, I can’t because I have kids, and I have this, and I have this, or are you going to use those 10 years to get to the place that you really want to be? You mentioned about not being afraid to pivot. That is scary. I’m gonna tell you right now, I hear them. I can understand them.

[KATHY]:
I was terrified when, at 40, I did that.

[VERONICA]:
How do we do that?

[KATHY]:
I was terrified.

[VERONICA]:
How do we do that when it’s not starting off the way we’d like it to start off?

[KATHY]:
Well, one of the things that I hear all the time, just like you, and the people that I talk with, they often say it in a different way, and what they say is, I don’t want to start over. Or I feel like I have to start over. And here’s the reality, Veronica. Nobody is starting over. You have all of that knowledge, all of that experience that you have already gathered in your whole life, that has gotten you where you are now. And it is tremendously valuable. And that’s what people fail to realize. You’re not starting over, you’re continuing on. And I believe just like you do, you’re going to be… that woman is going to be 48 whether she does this or not. And you know how easy it is to waste 8 years?

[VERONICA]:
Oh, gosh, yes.

[KATHY]:
It is incredibly easy to wake up at 48 and go, what did I do for the last 8 years? Why didn’t I get that degree?

[VERONICA]:
Yeah.

[KATHY]:
So I look at taking it one step at a time. So for example, if it’s somebody that wants to get a degree, think about one semester. What is that? What is one semester? Is that 8 weeks? Is that 90 days? What is it? And think, can I do this for 90 days, or whatever that length of time is? Can I do that? Then if the answer is yes, do that. And then, the next step, what’s the next one? Hey, I accomplished that. Whoohoo, just like you said. Now your confidence is starting to grow one little step at a time, right? I did it. That’s actually how I got all of my college education. Because, Veronica, sadly, when I was growing up, my mother didn’t believe – and the reason I came up with the phrase ‘what one woman can do another can do’ – is my mother didn’t believe that I could do anything. She literally would say things to me like, who do you think you are? Who do you think you are to go to college? You’re not going to college. So I got a job at that Fortune 500 company that I was talking about, and I started taking one semester at a time. And it took me 20 years to get my degrees. But I did. I did. And it was important to me. At the time, I thought it was important for my J-O-B – I have to spell that because I think it’s a curse word for me. Not for everybody. I envy those people who love their jobs. For me, it was a curse word. It was a J-O-B. But I am glad I have that. Because I think a lot of people who don’t have that, they have this false thought, they have this myth that if only they had a degree, then everything would work out. And I don’t know what you think but especially now, that is not true at all.

[VERONICA]:
It’s not. It’s not. Like I mentioned with hiring clinicians, it’s not their degree. Don’t get me wrong, you have to have a license, you have to have at least a masters in order to be a clinician. However, that’s not my focal point. I know you’re sitting across from me because you have the degree and you have the license or you’re an intern. Let’s take it further. Do you have the desire? And most women are… One thing I’ve learned about women, being a women’s expert, is they are loyal. We are so loyal, to a fault.

[KATHY]:
Yes. I love that we’re loyal. I wish we weren’t loyal to a fault. But I love that we’re loyal.

[VERONICA]:
I say we’re loyal to a fault, not all the time, but just because we will stay in that job trying to prove ourselves to that man, trying to prove ourselves to the world.

[KATHY]:
Yes. I did.

[VERONICA]:
No, let me go [unclear] more. Let me go ahead and compromise myself even more. Let me go ahead and show you why you need to accept me. And don’t worry about giving me a raise just yet. Let me go ahead and prove this, and this, and this. It takes so much in us to say wait a minute, homie. Wait a minute. I deserve that raise. And if you’re not going to pay me it, then I’m gone. And that deals with this lack of confidence. The minute we build up that confidence, well, now we can be loyal, however, in a totally different level. Right? So you say…

[KATHY]:
I think that’s trying to have… Can I just comment on that?

[VERONICA]:
Yep.

[KATHY]:
I think that’s trying to have… that’s getting external validation.

[VERONICA]:
Yep. 100%.

[KATHY]:
And we need to stop needing external validation. We need to be able to say, you know what? I’m friggin amazing. I’m so good at what I do. And if I want to get even better at X, Y, Z, I know I can. Because what one woman can’t do another can do. If you’ve ever seen a woman be able to do it, you can do it too.

[VERONICA]:
Yes.

[KATHY]:
I mean, there are women who go back to college at 80 and get a degree. 40 is nothing. I’m gonna tell you right now, I thought I was old when I turned 30. Then I thought I was old at 40. I’m gonna tell you right now, now, at 60, I don’t feel old. I feel younger than I did back then because my mind has shifted.

[VERONICA]:
Right. Well, and it took you taking those leaps, and trusting, believing in yourself. That self-validation has to be internal. It can’t be external because nobody’s gonna validate us. They’re not.

[KATHY]:
Well, one of the things I thought about doing, just to further your example here, before I quit, before I made that decision to quit that job, I actually thought about going back and getting a PhD because I thought, well, maybe if I have a PhD, then I’ll get that. And fortunately, I was working with a therapist at the time – I worked with a therapist for many, many years, as you can imagine having a mama like I did – which absolutely saved my life, helped me create my life, did all of those things. And I was working with her and she said, you’re trying to get validation, external validation.

[VERONICA]:
100%.

[KATHY]:
And a PhD isn’t going to help you feel more confident. It’s just going to take five years of your life and you don’t even have anything you want to do with it other than say you have it. So that’s not what’s going to be right for you. And I was like, oh, my gosh, you’re so right. And of course, she didn’t say it exactly like that. Therapists don’t usually tell you what to do. But, you know, they help you think it through yourself. And I was so grateful for that because there are literally women who come to me now, and have PhDs, have doctorates, and they say in, like, teary, passionate, almost, like, so upset voice, do you think that I would be qualified to be a virtual assistant? I only have a PhD in blah, blah, blah. I’m like, are you kidding me? Yes, let’s go make some money. Let’s go have some fun.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah. Yeah.

[KATHY]:
And I also have people come to me with a GED. Do you think I could do this? Yeah. Yeah, let’s go make some money. Let’s go have some fun, and everything in between.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah. I love that. You said, I fell in love with helping other women who are in the same position I was, not having people see their value. So when I read that, I was like, oh, this is my girl. This is my girl. Here’s why: like I mentioned, I’m a therapist. Not ever did I imagine that I would take on this other animal, you know, Empowered and Unapologetic. Like, no, stay in my lane. However, I needed this. I needed it. You know, when my husband and I were one month away from a divorce, I needed it because it was like, I went to a bank and didn’t have a bank account, to pay bills for both of us. And I was told, girl, you don’t have an account. He does. He has an account. You don’t. You know, and it was like, what am I gonna do? What am I going to do? Went back to school, did all of these things. However, it was that population, the ones that don’t quite necessarily need therapy. However, they need this community, they need this community of women who get them. So, tell me more about that – helping women who [unclear].

[KATHY]:
Yeah. So, I’m on my third husband. One of the reasons that I went through therapy was because I went through husbands one and two super fast. And then I went, what’s the common denominator here? It’s me. I need some help. I did. I mean, I really did need therapy. And thank goodness that I got it. And you’re right, not everybody needs it. Although I do think everybody can benefit from it. That’s just my personal opinion.

[VERONICA]:
Oh, girl? Yes. Yes. 100%? Yes, please go.

[KATHY]:
Yeah. It really changed my life, 100%. What was my point? Oh, every woman has value. Yes. So let me give you an example of how women do not believe that they are an expert. So, and let me just tell you first my version of what an expert is. An expert is somebody that knows a little bit more than the person that you’re helping. Do you know a little bit more than that person? So there’s a woman named Edi, fabulous woman in my program, she came in about eight years ago. And she had just moved from Hollywood, where she worked doing video and different things, to Brooklyn. And when she came to me, she said, what do you think I should specialize in as a virtual assistant? And she told me her story, I’m like, video. Do you still like it? She goes, I love it. But I’m not an expert at it. I’m like, you worked in Hollywood. How could you not be an expert? And she named, like, five people in the whole wide world who knew more than she did. That was her reason. And I was like, this is crazy. You know so much more about video than I know. You are already an expert. You could already help people. But it took me, I’m not kidding you, another two years to convince her that she could really do this. And now she has an amazing business where she is creating video, editing video, directing, YouTube marketing, all of that, and she loves it. And when she looks back, she’s like, I wasted those two years because I was convinced I wasn’t good enough. I think that’s what that value is all about. Your worthiness.

[VERONICA]:
It’s just a shift in mindset. Like, literally, it’s just a shift in your mindset. We’re all worth the same amount. Our looks don’t matter. Our finances don’t matter. Our education doesn’t matter. We’re all worth the same exact amount. It’s what…

[KATHY]:
Simply because we are here.

[VERONICA]:
Bingo.

[KATHY]:
Simply because we are here, right now. I truly believe there’s a reason each and every one of us are here right now. I know a lot of people are probably going, 2020, I wish I weren’t here for 2020. Why do I have to be here for this? There’s a reason; I truly believe that. There is a reason you are here right now. It might be to raise your kids, it might be to help your husband, it might be to do something else. Speaking of husbands, I want to go back to that because I knew there was a reason I brought that up. I find that a lot of women let – and I’m really mean when I say let – let their husbands discourage them.

[VERONICA]:
Yes. Oh, my God. Yes. Yes, please, please share more.

[KATHY]:
So my husband, when I said, I’m gonna build this business, you – I’m not domestic at all, okay. I don’t do domestic. That is not me. I like to work, I like to do stuff like that, I don’t like domestic. So when I married this guy, he knew that, because he likes to tell a story of when he walked into my apartment, he had to step on shoes to get in the door, because I just kick my shoes off at the door. And [unclear] I don’t care what he thinks, you know, new guy I’m dating, take it or leave it, I don’t care. So when I decided to start my business, and I could tell it was going to be very successful, I said, would you like to retire and just take care of me, and our dogs, and our kids, and grandkids and all of that? And he’s like, sure. But then the reality hit. And it was a struggle for a while, you know, I was investing more than I was getting out, and he was beginning to doubt. And it was showing in what he would say to me. And I kept having to have conversations with him and saying, do you really believe in me or not? Do you really believe that I have what it takes or not? Because when you say things like, well, when’s the money going to start coming in? Which is what I hear from a lot of women that their husbands say, where’s the money that you said would come in?

I’m like, you know, give me a year of being in the red, and then the following year, I’ll be in the black and here’s what I expect to make. If you can talk to your spouse like that, stand up for yourself and let them know what you need. I was very clear on what I needed from him. Here’s what I need, I need you to not say things like, and I would tell them exactly what you just said, not to do that anymore. And here’s instead what I do need. And you know what? He loved me, just like all these other women, their husbands love them. And if they don’t, move on. So they will help you if you ask, but if you don’t tell them what you need, they don’t know how. But don’t let them discourage you. Because you can do it with or without that man.

[VERONICA]:
Not at all. Um, I had… I wouldn’t say 100% similar, but when my private practice started to grow, my husband supported me; he was all gung ho about it. However, it was when he started to see how successful it was, and I started hiring other clinicians, and they started to go ahead and grow because of the clients that wanted to come and see me but I would give to them, when that money started coming in, that’s when he started to doubt himself, and even doubt his place in the relationship, because now there’s a substantial difference with regards to income and that took a huge hit on his ego.

And there was a point where my husband had said to me – I remember, we were at a casino waiting for the buffet, I’m being completely honest, we were waiting for the buffet. It was my mom’s birthday, and she loved the buffet at Pechanga. And so, um, so we’re waiting and my husband, you know, we were waiting in line, and my husband looked at me and he said, you don’t need me. And I looked at him and I was like, well, what do you mean, I don’t need you. And then he said, well, you don’t need me. And then I had replied – and I know women, you’re gonna go crazy right now, just hear me out – I had said, I replied to him and said, I never needed you. I never needed you. And I don’t mean for that to come across as disrespectful because I was hugging him and I was about to kiss him when I was saying it. But it was more of me saying that to myself, and I kid you not. It was me taking myself back to that bank, back to that lady who was so awful and mean to me when she told me I didn’t have an account, my husband did. We were in the middle of the divorce. It was me being able to say, that was a lie you told yourself, that you need that validation, that external validation, you need somebody else to go out and give you permission to live your life, you need for somebody else to tell you that, okay, here you go. Here’s the green light for you to pursue your career. I don’t need that. I need me. I need to be on my side. So I’ve never needed you. I want to be with you. And the minute I was able to…

[KATHY]:
I choose you.

[VERONICA]:
Bingo, heck yeah.

[KATHY]:
Heck yeah.

[VERONICA]:
And the minute I was able to say that, the expectations for my husband, it was kind of like that weight on his shoulders just… I don’t want to stay, melted away, but it was a little bit gone, you know, if that even makes any sense. But there was not that pressure in our relationship. And it totally changed our relationship for the better. So I love that you… Yes, yes. Yes.

[KATHY]:
And by the way, my husband has gone through all of that also. He has literally…

[VERONICA]:
Yeah. Part of it.

[KATHY]:
…at points. Yeah. At points, said, I no longer feel like a man. Nobody needs me. You don’t need me. Nobody needs me. I’m useless. And I’m like, hey, bud, time for you to go figure out what you want, how you want to live the rest of your life.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah. That’s not mine. That’s… Yep, that’s not… I had the same conversation with my husband. That’s not mine. And most women will take that on. Holy moly, I need to fix this. I need to make sure he feels validated, he feels like a man. Uh uh, girl. That’s not yours. Let that be his. Let that be his friend to figure out and he will figure it out. He will figure it out.

[KATHY]:
Yes.

[VERONICA]:
Oh, my gosh. Yes. I love that you said that, Kathy.

[KATHY]:
Yeah. I said, what do you need in order to feel better? What do you need in order to feel like a man, in order to feel needed? In order to feel happy? What do you need? That’s what you’ve got to figure out now. And if anybody’s listening to this, and you don’t have your own bank account, you don’t have your own good credit score, getting going now. Now, now, now. Because that is essential for you to have freedom.

[VERONICA]:
Absolutely. I love that you said that. And don’t hide it behind your husband’s back.

[KATHY]:
No. Oh, god [unclear] already, Veronica. I hid debt with this husband. So I did that. And that was… You talk about crippling yourself in your business, if you hide debt, if you hide things like that, it will destroy your relationship.

[VERONICA]:
Oh, 100%.

[KATHY]:
Yeah. It almost destroyed us. Thank goodness, I came out, told him, we worked it through, he was really quite amazing about it. But that also helped me have that mind shift because I was stuck at six figures in my business. I couldn’t get past it, for like three years. I was just stuck at about a hundred thousand. I couldn’t figure out what was going on. And part of it was that hiding of debt. Once I let go of that, things started shifting. And then I did mind work on my worthiness. And what I realized in hindsight, after doing that work, is I believed I was worth a hundred thousand, but I didn’t believe I was worth more.

[VERONICA]:
Hmm. So that leads me to this question. What are you doing right now – and I ask all my guests this question. Can you attach that – what are you doing right now to live the life you want to live? So how do we do that?

[KATHY]:
Well, I live very intentionally. I decide… I really think about how I want to live, what I want my life to look like, in great detail. Because once you do that, you can manifest it. Whether you do it by thinking negative things, or whether you do it by thinking things you really want. So if you think about things you don’t want, it’s going to come into your life. If you think about things, whatever you focus on comes into your life. So I think very clearly about what I really want. So for example, you mentioned that I live in a tiny house in the woods, that is on purpose because I’ve always wanted to live in a tiny house. Even before there was such a thing that they called it a tiny house. I just love minimalism. I love it. I love extremes. I either want to live in Manhattan, or here, an hour from a grocery store in a National Forest. I don’t like in between. And I know that about myself and so I created that for myself. I never wanted to give birth but I wanted to have grandchildren. So I purposely married a man with grown children and I have six grandchildren now. And they only know me as Grandma, because they were all born, you know, I’m the one that’s always around. So you can when you know what you want, and you’re very clear on it. And I really believe you need to write it down and get as specific as you possibly can. You can have that in your life.

[VERONICA]:
Ladies, get a piece of paper and a pen and start writing what you want your life to look like. Because that involves that shift in mindset and that level of self-worth, that you believe that you are capable. You don’t have to work 50,000 hours, you don’t. You can create it. There was a time with my career as a therapist, I thought, well, I’m only going to go ahead and charge my clients what they were paying for their copay. I didn’t take insurance. I still don’t take insurance. But I’m only going to charge that. So it was $30, $50 because that’s all I thought I was worth. And now my rate is not that at all, not even close to that. But there was a time that that’s all I thought I was worth because I didn’t think I was worth more. Until one of my other clinician friends told me how much they were making, I was like, wait a minute. I mean, I know I’m not the best therapist, but I know I’m a little [unclear]. So what’s going on here? My last question, my last question, what advice would you give to the mom that feels stressed and disconnected?

[KATHY]:
Well, you know, what we just were talking about, to sit down and really think about what you want. Allow yourself to daydream. Because while you’re momming, while you’re cleaning, cooking, driving to work, whatever all the things are that you… doing the laundry, you can be daydreaming. So let your mind wander, get creative, really imagine what you want that ideal life to look like. And don’t stop at, well, this couldn’t be possible. Don’t let any of that come in. This needs to be your fantasy. Because then, once you know what that really is, and you get really clear on what that is, you can figure out what you can do in your life right now to get that feeling. So maybe I can’t right now go be a Hollywood movie star. But if I wanted to do that, well, there’s a lot of things I could do to have that feeling. I could do YouTube videos, I could be in community theater. So that’s what I help women do. I help women go, okay, dream. What is it that you want? What do you like? What did you like about that job? What did you not like about that? What was that feeling? Now let’s see if we can figure out what you can do in your daily life to enjoy that. So for example, Veronica, for me, when COVID hit, I used to take every Thursday off and drive in an hour to town – can you tell I’m a hillbilly? Going to town, going into town – and I would have lunch with my girlfriends, I would get a massage, I would get in an infrared sauna. It was a spa day for me. And when COVID hit I couldn’t do that anymore. And I mourned it for a little bit and then I thought, okay, what can I do to replace that? So I bought myself a massage chair and a sauna.

[VERONICA]:
Boom, boom, done. Mm hmm.

[KATHY]:
So think about what it is you really want. And maybe you need somebody to brainstorm. Your community, Veronica, that you’re talking about. Get in a community of people that will support you – you need that – that will not be judgmental, that will celebrate you. And then you can brainstorm these things with that community, they can help you flesh it out. And once you know what you want, it’s so much easier to go for it. I mean, it becomes easy then. And you look back a year or two or three later and go, oh my gosh, this is what… A lot of people create those vision boards and they’ll look back several years later, and they’ll look at that and go, oh my gosh, I have that.

[VERONICA]:
I did it. Yes, I did. Yes, I did.

[KATHY]:
Yes. Yeah. One of the women in my program – her name is Laurie – she, for years, went on walks around her neighborhood, went on walks. And she had a house that she passed by. And she said, every time I pass by that house, she goes, I just thought it was like a mansion. I want to own that house someday. I want to own the house someday. Guess what? She owns it. Now she owns it.

[VERONICA]:
Amazing. That is amazing. Because it’s true. It can happen. It can happen. We limit ourselves. So tell us, Kathy, how can we find you?

[KATHY]:
So I have a special page set up just for you and your listeners.

[VERONICA]:
Yay.

[KATHY]:
So you can go to virtualexperttraining.com/eau.

[VERONICA]:
Boom. All right. Yay. All right, do you have Instagram, Facebook, and I know you have LinkedIn?

[KATHY]:
Yes, I have all the above, and on, like, YouTube, tons and you got to go watch those videos now that you know how crazy they’ll look. [Unclear] good information on there. Okay, so you’ll see that I have a Facebook group and I have a Facebook business page and I have LinkedIn and you can share all of that if you want in the show notes.

[VERONICA]:
Definitely. Definitely. Kathy, this has been absolutely amazing. Amazing. Like, seriously, it’s been just so much fun. Thank you so much.

[KATHY]:
I feel like I can talk to you all day. You have the kind of energy that I just want to, like, bathe in. Can we bottle that and I can put it in a spray bottle so I can just spray myself? While, I’ll work on it.

[VERONICA]:
I’ll work on it. Okay.

[KATHY]:
Cool. You’ll make a lot of money. That would be really… that’d be multi million, even gazillion, I think.

[VERONICA]:
Thank you again for being on the show.

[KATHY]:
Thank you so much, Veronica.

[VERONICA]:
What’s up, ladies? Just want to let you guys know that your ratings and reviews for this podcast are greatly appreciated. If you love this podcast, please go to iTunes right now and rate and review. Thank you, guys.

Many women lose their own identity in the shadow of being a mom and a wife. We are a community of women who support each other. We leave perfectionism behind to become empowered and unapologetic. I know you’re ready for the next steps. If you want to become empowered and unapologetic, get my free course, Unapologetically Me over at empoweredandunapologetic.com/course.

This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, Practice of the Practice, or the guests, are providing legal, mental health, or other professional information. If you need a professional, you should find one.