[VERONICA]:
Empowered and Unapologetic is part of the Practice of the Practice Podcast Network, a family of podcasts that changed the world. To hear other podcasts like, the Bomb Mom podcast, Beta Male Revolution, or Imperfect Thriving, go to practiceofthepractice.com/network.

Have you ever thought, how did I manage to lose myself? Being a mom is so hard, especially when we’re feeling stressed and disconnected. We exhaust ourselves trying to create this perfect life for our family. You deserve to enjoy your marriage and your kids, without the stress perfectionism brings. I am going to teach you how to identify who you are, outside of all of the roles you play. Hi, I’m Veronica Cisneros. I’m a wife, mother of three and a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. I am on a mission to teach women just like you how to become empowered and unapologetic. Welcome to our girl gang.

Hey ladies, welcome to Empowered and Unapologetic. I’m your host, Veronica Cisneros. We’re doing things a little different today. I know right now is a rough time for all of us. We are trapped in our house, feeling like it’s Groundhog Day, every day, and some of the issues in our relationships that we’ve been ignoring, are now beginning to surface. Did you know that 50% of first marriages end in divorce? 50%. That’s, like, absolutely crazy. 60% for second marriages and 70% of third marriages. Some couples even question why they got married in the first place. So, with everything that’s going on, I wanted to give you an honest, real and raw conversation where you would have the ability to get input from a different perspective, well, a male perspective and I knew just the person who can do this. So please, help me by welcoming my hero, the love of my life, my hubby, Willie Cisneros. Hey, Willie.

[WILLIE]:
Hey.

[VERONICA]:
Oh my God, why am I calling you Willie? It’s so weird.

[WILLIE]:
God, this is so nerve-racking for me as well. I had this corny little thing because I was like, okay, at some point, she’s gonna introduce me, and I’m gonna have to have something to say that was like, I’m honored and privileged to be on the show, but screw it. I’m just glad to be on this podcast and so damn proud of you, and all that you’ve accomplished thus far, and I’m just glad to be on this journey with you.

[VERONICA]:
Thank you, baby. Totally called you, Willie. So welcome to the show. You’re the first male and I wanted to make sure that if there was gonna be a male on the show obviously, duh, it had to be you. So anyway, I believe you make the perfect guest because I feel as if some women are under the impression that we’re the only ones feeling the pain. And men just brush things off, they don’t care, which leaves us women, again, to carry all of the burden. So, in today’s episode, I would love for you to educate us on what we can do as a couple to work together as a team during this difficult time. And I know for us, it hasn’t been 100% easy. And there are times where you and I are both just needing to take a timeout from each other, because it’s just so overwhelming with the kids, with homeschool, you’re working, I’m working, you’re downstairs, I’m upstairs and the kids are just everywhere. And so, I know for most couples right now I’m getting so many messages. I’m like, dude, I don’t even know what I’m gonna do. I’m practically on the road to divorce or I’m thinking about divorce or why are we even together? We don’t even… We’ve been ignoring this for so long. And so, I’m having all of these people sending me private messages in the Facebook group. Women are, you know, not coming up to me, but women are just commenting on how difficult this time is. So, I thought, okay, this is a perfect time, better than ever to go ahead and address this issue. So first, before we get into it, I’ve already shared our story from my perspective. Can you share with the listeners our story from your perspective?

[WILLIE]:
So, in a short way here of where I could capture how we all met, or how we both met was, my previous career was I was a United States Marine. At this point, I was at the beginning of my career. I’d just got back from a tour in Japan and I didn’t know much about the area, Southern California. Found out that I had a cousin over here, borrowed his car, went for a drive, had to go drop my stuff off at the cleaners and only knew one way to get there. I didn’t know any side streets, but I only knew one way how to get there and how to get back. So I’m driving, driving through Oceanside and it’s a nice sunny day, windows are down, music is bumping and I’m singing, not even paying attention to anything going on around me and I look to my left and who do I got, but a car with two girls and they’re both laughing and I’m like, holy crap, I just got caught. And so, I nervously, like, soon as the light turns green, I’m gone. And I’m like, I just got caught, that was so embarrassing. So I get to the next light, I make a turn, I noticed this car makes the turn the same way I’m going and then I get to the next light and make another turn, car turns with me and goes the same way and I’m like, Alright, either they’re going the same way I’m going or they’re following me. What the hell’s going on. So, I continue to drive and get down to the end of the road. And, and it’s a lot of like cat and mouse looking back and forth at each other. She was driving a car at the time. And I’m looking at her, she’s looking at me, we’re kind of smiling at one another in a flirtatious way. Get to a stoplight, I got less cars in my lane. She has more cars in her lane. I think I had two cars, she had three cars. So, I had to make a decision as I was driving up and I started to go to like a cruising speed and decide, if I go all the way up, I miss an opportunity. If I just stay here, I get people honking behind me, but who cares? This is my opportunity to kind of seize the moment and talk to this girl. So, I kind of give the universal sign of roll down your window, talk to her and I say hey, you busy? Can you pull over and follow me so we could talk? And I do – I get her to pull over, we go to the Shell gas station on Coast Highway and…

[VERONICA]:
Yeah, we totally met on a highway, you guys. I hope you don’t miss that.

[WILLIE]:
Met on a highway, pulled over, stopped at a gas station. And then she goes, are you… You’re a marine, huh? And I go, yes. And it was like, from that next day, we hung out and we’re with each other every single day for like the first two and a half months. It’s gotta be month and a half, two months. And we were together every single day and never got sick of her. And she never got sick of me either I guess. But, I mean, it was just really, really fast. And that was our story for… My story of how we met.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah. So, four months after we met, you proposed.

[WILLIE]:
Yeah, crazy.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah, it was totally crazy. And then a year after we met, we got married.

[WILLIE]:
Yeah.

[VERONICA]:
So… don’t do that.

[WILLIE]:
Fast movers – well, I was a fast mover.

[VERONICA]:
So why am I sharing this with you? Because I need you guys to… I want to help you guys understand, like, we kind of went the fast route with how we entered our marriage. And so, with that there were so many bumps and, like, just mountains and issues along the way, because we were both young. I was 20 and you were 21 and…

[WILLIE]:
No, it was 19.

[VERONICA]:
Oh, yeah, that’s right. That’s right. 19 and 20. Yeah. Yeah. So, anyway, with that we’ve learned so much throughout the years. And in a couple of my episodes, I talk about how we were literally one month away from divorce, like, court papers in hand – it was happening. And so, now to see where we’re at three kids later, you know, the house, the home, everything, it’s just crazy. And I have to say it hasn’t always been this way. There were times where we just, we had to separate. There were times where it was just really, really rough. And I think, through those times, we’ve learned so much about each other and I know I learned a lot about me, and I know you’ve talked about how much you’ve learned about yourself and, you know, just our level of maturity is different. And so, for those of you that are stuck at home with each other, I know it can be intense. And I know that because even with myself there are times where it’s just too much and I want to run away. And… What are your thoughts? Do you ever get like that too where you’re just like, okay, dude, I can’t, like…?

[WILLIE]:
Yeah, there’s times where I feel like I need my alone time as well. I think we all do. But I think that we all want to impress upon our own agenda on our partner, and what we feel is most important to us, we want them to feel the same thing too, like, Why aren’t you seeing how important this is to me, and you’re carrying it with that same weight on your shoulders as well? And then we get overwhelmed with everything and then it’s just a constant fight. So, I don’t know. I think with that, yes it does… We all do need our time alone.

[VERONICA]:
Absolutely. So, um, one of my friends Michelle, she sent me a text earlier and she said, you know, most people say “I married you for life, but not for lunch”, meaning you still need breaks from each other. I would totally agree with that. And I love how you just said that… Oh, God. Okay, so, first I have to say we’re totally in our closet right now. We’re in our closet; shoes are surrounding us, clothes are surrounding us, we’re just chillin’ with pillows…

[WILLIE]:
On the floor, in our closet.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah. So, if you hear movement, that’s us trying to be as quiet as possible. But it’s happening. So anyway, I digress. I think… where was I at?

[WILLIE]:
Talking about timeouts.

[VERONICA]:
Timeouts. One thing that I appreciate that you said is, just because it’s something that is very important to me and, you know – you didn’t say me but that’s how I took it – that it doesn’t have to be important, just as important to you. And I think that’s where a lot of couples miss the mark. And I know that’s… And I say that only because Hello, I’m… There are times where I’m so excited about something, and you’re not sharing that same level of excitement. And then it’s like, aahh…

[WILLIE]:
It’s perspective.

[VERONICA]:
Yes. Yes. So, tell me more, like….

[WILLIE]:
To me it’s perspective of like, just letting like… Before, I would say, things that were important to me was like, I don’t know why they don’t see how much I’m trying to make them happy and I’m trying to… Or that I’m working on this project and I need their help and I’m doing all this stuff but they just want to relax and loaf around, or they just want to, you know, watch a movie or they’d just rather be on their phone. To me it’s all perspective and you have to work on you first. And that’s where I think the timeouts are important. You have to take a time to work on you, whether it’s just by yourself or you’re at each other’s throats and about to throw a punch at each other, where you need to kind of reset, even if it’s just walking away.

Before her, I used to always say, don’t go to sleep upset. And we always had to fix our problems at night, where now I think just with maturity and the years of experience doing all this stuff, I would challenge that in the fact that I don’t think we need to fix things right then and there because I think when we’re at a heightened state of emotion, that it’s best for us to kind of take a time out from that and walk away, put the emotions aside because you can’t have a rational decision, come to a rational solution, a rational decision by being in a heightened state of emotion and I think it’s best to just walk away, even if it means sleeping on it and then coming back and having… looking at the facts, okay, she didn’t mean to do this intentionally. She doesn’t hate me, she loves me. And I can see that I actually messed this up. So, I can own this but there are some things that we need to talk about regarding this other thing. So, I think to me that that’s critically important.

[VERONICA]:
I agree. I think for me, which is kind of hearing you say all of that, in those moments, I know, for me, I’m so passionate. I’m so passionate about whatever’s going on and I want to get what I have to say, out, right now, and I want you to hear it right now. The thing that I didn’t realize, especially in the past is, right now is not the time for me to say anything. And right now is the time where I really need to take that break, and I need to lock myself in my room or I need to lock myself in the bathroom because what I’m about to say, is probably going to hurt you. And I remember in the beginning, when we were first… in the first couple years of our marriage, I remember that was my goal. And I hate to say that out loud, like oh my god, ladies, you guys probably think I’m such a big monster or you totally relate, one of the two. But I remember, I would be so passionate about whatever the hell was going on, I wanted you to be at that same level. And if you weren’t, then I felt rejected. And I felt completely dismissed. And so, it was like, Okay, well, now I really need you to hear this. And I really need you to hear this because I just wanted to get my point across, and I just want to… You know what, to be honest, I just wanted to be heard. I just wanted you to hear me and I wanted you to validate me. And there were times that you didn’t do that. And so, it’s just like, I felt by myself. And I know that that’s what’s happening to a lot of people right now.

You know, we’re all going through this and we’re at this heightened level of uncertainty because there’s so much going on. Aaliyah is not gonna have a graduation. Aaliyah’s probably not gonna have a prom, you know, and there are times where I take on some of her stress, and then Aubrey’s missing her friends and Brooklyn’s like, Well, why are the neighbor’s kids playing outside and I can’t play outside? And I’m Facetiming my friends and they’re all in the pool together and, Mom, they’re not following the COVID laws or COVID instructions. And so I don’t think we’re aware of how much stress we are currently in and in addition to that, how many things are triggering us and so when you add that to what might be an already not so healthy relationship, well, things are going to go awry. And so, I think this is why it’s so important that we take those time outs and we even check in with each other. And the other day…not the other day, was it last week?… Willie and I were having a talk and it ended up being a long one and it was in the shower. And it was so long that the shower was… our bathroom was completely fogged up and I just, I don’t know if I turned off the water or left the water on so we can stay hot, warm, but anyway, we’re sitting on the floor, and that was such an amazing conversation because we were both open and honest about her feelings. What was that like for you?

[WILLIE]:
I appreciated that because we were just able to open up about everything with regards to us, regards to where we’re at right now in life. It was just a bunch of stuff, getting stuff out of there and weight off our shoulders. And trying to figure this stuff out because it’s not easy and right now, it involves a lot of creativity, just because before, it was like, God, I wish we could just work from home already, and now I think people are like, God, I want to just go back to my office right now just to get away. So, I think it’s a bit of both. And getting that stuff out there was just… it allowed us to be able to see the other person’s perspective that we drew assumptions to, and we were able to get clarity on. That being from my wife.

[VERONICA]:
I appreciated how vulnerable you were with me. And in so many ways, it gave me permission to be that much more vulnerable with you. And I already feel like I was being open and honest and raw, but it just felt like, Okay, tag, you’re it, tag, you’re it, tag, you’re it. And we were able just to have this really great conversation about our fears, and what’s next, and I didn’t have to fix you, and you don’t have to fix me. We were just able to listen to each other. And that’s another key ingredient to what makes a healthy relationship. And as we’re talking about this, I want you guys to know by no means do Willie and I… you know, we don’t have a perfect marriage. We don’t. We’ve been married for 20 years, going on 21, and I’m gonna tell you right now there are times where it’s just a lot. And there’s things that we have to address, and we have to go ahead and focus on and we have to pivot. And we do that. And the only reason I feel like we do that well, not perfect, is because of what we’ve learned about each other.

But going back, I think the primary rule is don’t fix. And that’s something that I use in my private practice. I’m constantly telling my clients, “Do not fix”. If you’re going to attempt to fix, you’re gonna fail. Here’s why: your partner doesn’t want you to fix them. They want you to hear them. And I’ve practiced that in our marriage. And there are times where, you know, my husband’s a marine and he was away in Afghanistan. He endured quite a lot. He was blown up twice, and he’s fine. He’s physically fine. Everything about him. He’s more than physically fine. You’re fine. He’s sexy as hell. Anyway, we’re in the closet, so we’re gonna try to keep this G-rated. Anyway, there’s so much that it impacted you. And because I’m a therapist, I remember when you first came back, I wanted to be your therapist. And I realized, okay, that’s not going to help us because I was met with some resistance, you know, and this wall.

[WILLIE]:
Because I just wanted my wife, I didn’t want a therapist.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah, yeah. And I’m saying this, I’m sharing this with you guys because even though I have all the tools that can help my husband, I actually see marines. I actually see first responders and, guess what, I actually treat them, I help them. I get them to that next level. And here’s my husband going through so much and I couldn’t help him. And so that was difficult. And so, I share this again, because right now, your partner might be experiencing a heightened level of anxiety or a heightened level of stress and uncertainty, and I don’t want you to fix them. Instead, I would like you to understand their pain. And in turn, you be able to share what you’re experiencing. So, you guys can have this beautiful conversation and sharing like, this is where I’m at and I can hear you, I don’t have to fix you. I think there’s so much validation in that.

[WILLIE]:
Yeah, I would, I would agree. And I would just piggyback off of what she was saying that… about listen to hear versus listen to fix. That was one of the things that she had to teach me because, for me, in my past life as a marine, I look at everything as a task or as a mission. So, if I see a problem, my job is to find a solution. So, she would come to me with like, I’m frustrated, I’m struggling with this, or I’m having problems with this, or whatever it was. Anything that she came to me with, I seen it as that was something that I needed to fix. Because I, for one, I didn’t want to see her crying or hurting. I wanted to take that pain away, because I wanted to be that protection blanket for her. And along with that, I created more problems than I created solutions and I didn’t realize it. And it wasn’t actually until she sent me a video that I would highly recommend.

[VERONICA]:
“It’s not the nail.”

[WILLIE]:
If you haven’t seen it… “It’s not about the nail”.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah, I think that’s what it’s titled.

[WILLIE]:
You gotta see that video on YouTube if you get a chance. But that gave me a lot of perspective into the fact that it’s not about this problem. It’s about just hearing me and sometimes all she wanted me to do was just be that shoulder to cry on. Be the person to be able to just listen and let me get all this stuff off my shoulders. That’s all she wanted. She didn’t want anything more than that. And it took me a lot of biting my own tongue and realizing that that’s all she wanted. And that’s the same thing that I wanted with regards to the problems that I was having coming back after having these traumatic events and being part of it, or witnessing it, or just having these things that I was dealing with in my own life. And I didn’t want her to fix either. I just wanted her to listen to me and just be my wife. The problem is, I think for a lot of relationships is we all want to be fixers. We all want to create solutions for our partner’s problems.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah. The video is called, “It’s not about the nail” and we’ll totally put it in our show notes so you guys can have it and I highly recommend, just as he did – and I want to piggyback on that – you guys both watch it. But I think… So, what was it? Because men are fixers. I don’t know how many men come into my office and they’re like, okay, I want it fixed. My wife’s talking about all this emotional stuff and I don’t know what to do with it. I don’t know how to handle it. And if it’s not something that’s black and white, and something I could fix, well, now I’m in uncharted territory, because I’m dealing with all these emotions that I’m not comfortable with. And so, how do you get to that place? I guess I’m really asking to help women understand, like, it’s not that men aren’t caring. It’s not that men aren’t approachable. It’s just, I mean, how often were you given permission as a boy – as a young boy – to go ahead and cry? How often were you given permission to go ahead and share what you were feeling, or did you have to suck it up?

[WILLIE]:
Crying was a sign of weakness growing up and it was usually heard from my grandmother and from others. My mom would say, you know, give me… If you want to cry, I’ll give you a reason to cry. So, I learned to internalize my emotions and try to hide them as best as I could. And so that wasn’t something… And now I think, just kind of looking into the way that I was brought up and kind of looking at both the good and the bad of our own upbringing, we’ve tried to fix and challenge those things with our own kids and tell them that it’s okay to show emotion. It’s okay to express anger, frustration, sadness, happiness, grief and be completely open about those things and not hold them in like a volcano before you finally erupt.

[VERONICA]:
So what does a woman need to say, or not say, to go ahead and get that because… Okay, so you’re there, but I’m hearing plenty of women right now in my head going okay, well, yeah, he’s there. How the hell do we get my husband to be there? Because he doesn’t show motion, because he’s so black and white, because right now, we’re trying to parent together and he has his way, and I have mine, and we’re not seeing eye to eye. So, what is it that got you… What is it that helps you get to that place?

[WILLIE]:
Vulnerability.

[VERONICA]:
Okay so, how?

[WILLIE]:
It took a lot of being sheltered and having these blocks up in front of me and around me and wanting to do everything that I could to either keep busy to keep emotions out, whether it’s busy work, or avoiding conversations, and doing things like that, before I started to realize I’m carrying all this weight on my shoulders. So rather than just keep it on my shoulders all these years and take it to the grave with me, why not just open up about it, and I didn’t realize the freedom that gave me once I did just let that stuff out. And really just talk about it and get through it and, finally, it was just such a profound experience and feeling of just getting that stuff out, and talking about those things, that gave me that ability to kind of see, okay, this is what it’s like to finally get these emotions, talk about it, and it’s not a sign of weakness, it’s openly communicating in a more mature way. Whereas before I was so immature – I think we both were – in the way that we communicated. It was like, we only wanted to hear our perspective, we only wanted to press upon our own agendas on each other. And we wanted everybody to see our own way versus their way. We didn’t want to listen to hear, we wanted to listen to fix. So, all the things that we were doing that were wrong, it took some years of maturing for us to realize that was all wrong and it didn’t help our relationship. That’s how we got to the point of being a month, month and a half away from our divorce being final, that it took some growing up and actually it took a kick in the pants for me from a mentor of mine that kind of came over and said, you know, is this really what you want? And it took that and a longer conversation to help me see, to change my perspective and realize, No, it’s not what I wanted. And I needed some maturing and I think through the years, it’s really what it’s taken.

[VERONICA]:
And ladies, one thing I often hear in my practice is, “Okay, so I’m in here, I want change, but my husband likes things just the way they are. And I can’t do this anymore. I can’t do this anymore. And if I change am I going to still want to be with him?” I’ve heard that said so many times. And I’m going to tell you right now, what worked for me, and I think is also helping me with where I’m currently at right now with just this heightened level of uncertainty, I had to make this decision. I had to make this decision that I wanted things to change. I had to make this decision that I didn’t want to live this life. I didn’t want to live this lie. And so, what I decided to do was, okay, I’m gonna be vulnerable. And when I said that it’s like, What the hell are you thinking? You were raised to do everything but be vulnerable. And it’s like, well, that’s not working. And so, I’m going to go ahead and take this leap. And I’m going to go ahead and pursue the life I want to live. I want to go on and pursue the marriage I want. And so slowly, I started to go ahead and just say things out loud: what I was feeling instead of just suffering silently and quietly. I would say these things to my husband out loud. And the minute he would go into trying to give me this game plan of what to do to fix it, I would literally tell him, I’m only sharing this with you because I need to get it off my chest. And I’m sure there are times that you probably want the same. And I started to become an even better listener. Even though there were times he would say something and I wanted to interrupt because I seen him hurting or I seen him frustrated, I wanted to fix it, I would stop, stop sign, stop sign, stop sign. And I would just really listen to what he’s saying. Not so I would agree with him. Not so I would change what he was saying. Really to understand. Because then, now I’m having this conversation with my husband where he’s starting to open up to me because I’m opening up to him. And we’re starting to share. Nobody’s fixing each other. And it was basically something I modeled. And don’t get me wrong, does it suck that you’re the first one doing this? Absolutely. Does it suck that he might not follow along? Absolutely.

Now, I want you to look at: what is the consequence if you don’t do it? What does that look like? Do you want to continue living life this way? Because if the answer is “No” then girl, change needs to start. And it can start right now. You’re both inside of the house. Why not? Zero expectations. And what do I mean by that? For me, there are times when I have my agenda. And then there’s times where Willie has his agenda. And so, do you want to speak a little bit about that, especially with kids being homeschooled? There are times when I think he has all of these things done. And the next day, I look at it and it’s like, oh my God, we have to… Brooklyn has two missing assignments. How does Brooklyn have two missing assignments? And, again, don’t get me wrong, there are times where I’m so frustrated because it’s like, dude, how did you miss those two assignments? However, that’s an expectation I’m placing on you and I didn’t communicate it with you. And then there’s this miscommunication. And so, what I’ve noticed so far, especially with the kids and online schooling, is having a game plan and, again, what’s working for us may or may not work for you. You get to tweak it. You take the little tips that we’re giving you and tweak it to make it work for your family and talk it over with your husband. But what have you noticed has helped us with the kids in school and vulnerability and us really taking the time out and just being open?

[WILLIE]:
I think one of the things is we don’t mind read. Neither one of us do. So, it’s important that communication is the key part of this and telling each other like, Okay, did you… I’m going to be working on this with the kids. And I’d asked that you look at this, or just make sure that everything is completed. And we weren’t doing that. We were just, how did you miss this? How could you have done this? So, it’s immediately an attack versus seeking to understand, to see how things went. And she’s operating from, you know, when I am working at home, I’m downstairs, she’s upstairs, the kids most of the time are downstairs with me. I’m trying to work through my own things and she’s like, Okay, I’m seeing clients and doing other stuff within our upstairs bedroom, and I’m trying to do it from my way of doing things. The problem is we’re not seeing each other’s point of view, because we’re not communicating. We’re just expecting that you understand that this is supposed to be done and you’re not seeing it.

So, I think if we get past that, past the mind reading, expected mind reading, and openly communicate, that’s when we’re going to get past these problems. And I think that’s what’s going to help you all, in your own households as well is, don’t expect your spouse to be a mind reader. If they don’t know what’s going on or what you have that’s most important to you, and you don’t communicate that, then expect to have problems, because it’s going to continue. So if you don’t communicate in a way that isn’t insulting, but is mature and respectful to one another, you know, talk to others the way that you want to be…or treat others the way that you want to be treated – that golden rule – then do the same thing.

Communicate with one another and say, Hey, I totally missed this. We both missed this, and how do we go about fixing this? So, we missed this assignment. She was supposed to have it done and turned in by today, we totally screwed that up. So, going forward, what can we do? And that’s going to lead to a better conversation versus an attack of how did you miss this? How can you do this? And immediately it’s an attack. Well, they’re going to go on the defense. So, it’s either going to be the fight, flight or freeze and expect something back and it may not be the response that you want. So, if you want to work collaboratively as a team, then it’s better to communicate in a mature way.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah. You know, one thing you just said, totally… A big tip that works for me is, I have to constantly remind myself, we’re on the same team. And it’s not like I have to constantly remind myself that every single day, but it’s more of when we’re in it. When I’m feeling overwhelmed, when I’m feeling stressed, when I just feel as if I’m the only one doing all of this, when I feel like I’m the only one carrying this burden. I realized, well, wait a minute, that’s not 100% true. And I really have to check myself. I really have to check myself and I look at you and it’s like, wait a minute. He’s carrying this too, he’s in it too. And did he purposely neglect Brooklyn’s assignments because he wants her to have missing assignments? He’d prefer her not to do those, and not complete it? Well, no, that’s not true. So, what do I know is true, versus what is emotions? And I think most of us are blinded by emotions. And we then turn to our partners and look at them as if they’re the enemy. When in reality, again, we’re on the same team. And so, whenever I’m able to check myself, and realize we’re on the same team, we’re trying to go out and do this together, and we’re both overwhelmed and we’re both frustrated. How can we come back together? And I think another thing that helps me is physical touch. No matter how mad I am at you, because there are times when I’m really mad, like really, really mad. But, I know, when you touch me, like, touch my arm or I’m next to you and I can feel your energy, in those moments I remember why I love you so much. I’m not gonna cry, kind of.

[WILLIE]:
Even though that’s not your love language.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah, even though that’s not… Okay, really? You gotta bring that up for [unclear].

[WILLIE]:
It’s more of tasks being completed.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah. Okay, so my love language is tasks. I’m all about tasks.

[WILLIE]:
Getting shit done.

[VERONICA]:
Getting shit done, yeah, that’s right. The minute he calls me or tells me, Veronica, I got this, this and this done, and I got this done. That’s like phone sex to me. That’s like next-level phone sex, for reals. I know it’s crazy, but I’m all about getting things done. His love language is physical touch.

Anyways, we’ve kind of like, whatever, sidetracked, but yeah, I think it’s just realizing my husband’s not the enemy. He’s not, and there are times when I want so much control over everything and I want it done my way – Ladies, I’m totally talking to you right now – that I don’t like it when he tries to take it over because he’s not gonna do it like me. And one thing I have to realize is done over perfection. And then once the task is completed, there’s like proof that he is capable of, one, doing it and, two – don’t try to advertise and say that I said this and tell everybody – but like, there are times he does it better than me. Okay, that’s it, don’t get a big head or anything.

[WILLIE]:
I already know that.

[VERONICA]:
There are times that you do it better than me and I think it’s because you’re not so emotional. And so that’s one thing that I appreciate. And again, it’s like being able to see that there are things that you’re better at than I am and letting down that…giving up that control. And so, zero expectations, giving up control, recognizing you need a timeout. And, although we love each other, you know, I love and adore you, you know that?

[WILLIE]:
I do.

[VERONICA]:
Okay, well, this is where you say it back, you get to say it back.

[WILLIE]:
Likewise, I love and adore you as well and I appreciate everything that…all that you do, and all that you’ve done.

[VERONICA]:
Sorry I made you… I just needed to hear that. But anyway, recognizing we’re on the same team. We’re going to need breaks, there’s going to be times when you’re so overwhelmed, and you just need a timeout. And it’s not that you don’t want to be with me, or you don’t love me, or you love me less. It’s just you need that timeout and vice versa and trying not to personalize it. Right? And so, I think the last thing I’d like to cover is, how do you avoid going to, It’s your fault. It’s your fault and that’s it, or it’s my fault. How do we refrain from trying to place all the blame on one person? Because I know, for me, the minute you say it’s your fault, it’s like, Oh damn. I don’t like feeling as if I failed. And I’m sure for you as well. How do we come back from that? How do couples come back from that?

[WILLIE]:
From, It’s your fault? We’re talking about in the sense of an argument?

[VERONICA]:
Yeah. Like, “This is all your fault. Look, Brooklyn missed two assignments”.

[WILLIE]:
It goes back to what I first said. Sometimes it takes time to step away from that. I don’t believe that you could come to a mature solution to this problem that you had in this big ol’ mountain that you created, which probably was a molehill, and something small, but you made it this big ol’ thing. I don’t think that you can be able to devise a solution to that problem overnight. At least at that moment. You’re both at a heightened state of emotion. It’s best to just walk away, give yourself some timeout, and I don’t mean… You don’t necessarily have to sleep on it, but just step away from the situation, take a walk, go to another room, go outside in your own backyard, just given today’s day and age and what’s going on right now. Take that time to walk away and express that you need some time to kind of just think things through, and then come back and realize, okay, now I’m ready to talk in a more mature way. I’ve calmed myself down and I can go ahead and say, like, look, I realize my part in this and I’m sorry for what I’ve done. You want to win some damn kudos points, guys. Say, I’m sorry for my part in – fill in the blank – and you’re gonna… panty-dropping right there. So, you go with that and then you just lead with your problems or the things that you attributed to that problem. But how are you going to move forward from there and coming up with a solution, so that way you don’t find yourself in that same spot again?

[VERONICA]:
Yeah. I love that you said that [unclear] panty-dropping [unclear]… and I think that falls in line with how you guys can support each other, because that’s how we support each other is, this is where I’m at. And there are times where I check in with you, you check in with me, or… It’s not like we have an assigned meeting time but it’s just like, Hey, you know, I want to discuss some things for you, or with you, and vice versa. So, I want to wrap up here in that, like, what do you think it is that has kept us married for so long?

[WILLIE]:
I think it’s… There’s a lot. I think that the biggest thing is that we’ve never lost our own identity. We’ve always maintained that being the same child, the 19-, 20-year-old kids that we were, and we’ve never lost sight of that. We still, even just last night, had a big ol’… We seen this thing on YouTube with David Guetta and him doing an outdoor rave with him in like an apartment area in Miami. And we totally got all into the moment, had the music bumping in the living room and just had fun and our kids are part of it as well. And the week before last, for my wife’s birthday, I had a glow-in-the-dark party for her in our house, in our living room, moved furniture.

[VERONICA]:
Fog machines, black lights.

[WILLIE]:
Fog machines, had the damn fire alarms going off like crazy cos of damn too much fog. But it was like, we’ve never lost sight of who we are. And despite our experiences, despite the challenges or the accomplishments, we haven’t changed who we are. Our circumstances and the things around us have changed, but we’ve never lost sight of who we are. And that would be one of the things that I would say for you all too that are out there listening, that you don’t lose sight of the person you were. And yes, you may have changed and adapted and you may now have a couple kids later, or however many years invested into your marriage or relationship, but don’t lose sight of you and still enjoy that person that you were when you first met. And I think that’s… For us, I could appreciate that because I still see that same woman that, despite all her successes, she’s still that same person that I met 20, going on 21, years ago now.

[VERONICA]:
Yeah. Yeah. I love that you said that. Oh, honey. Okay, that might have been panty-dropping. All right. So, two questions I asked all of the guests at the end of our session. What are you doing right now to live the life you want to live?

[WILLIE]:
What am I doing right now? I would say, the thing that I’m doing right now to live the life that I want to live is trying to continue to grow and learn as much as I can. Try to be just as flexible as I can be with regards to my learning and absorb all that I can. Just with today’s day and age, you have to be adaptive and creative and innovative with things that you believe are gonna help you go to that next level. And if you don’t adapt, like right now with our business, technology is such a challenge. And if you choose to be…think in an archaic way, you’re going to be just like the dinosaurs and you’re going to die. And that’s why we’re seeing a lot of businesses die today, is they’re trying to stay brick and mortar and they’re refusing to adopt technology into their businesses. I think if you don’t start to learn about social media, start to learn about online marketing and things like that, you’re going to lose sight of those things. So, continue to grow and learn in any way that you can. Because, I mean, if you still have a breath, you still have the ability to learn.

[VERONICA]:
I love that. I love that you give the example of business, but it sounds like for you, it’s more of learning and growing as a person. Awesome. What advice would you give to the mom who feels stressed and disconnected if she was standing right in front of you? What in one sentence, what would you tell her? What one piece of advice would you give her?

[WILLIE]:
If you’re feeling stressed and disconnected? I would say, what are you feeling stressed and disconnected about? Write it down and either journal it or talk about it. Find somebody… I kind of know somebody who’s standing, or sitting, a few inches away from me that knows how to help with stress and disconnection from your spouse, your kids. Openly communicating is important. It’s important to me. As far as what you’re stressed about, if nobody knows why you’re stressed or why you’re disconnected, nobody mind reads. Nobody’s gonna understand how you’re feeling. Don’t do it at a heightened state. Do it in a calm, mature setting. And I think even expressing that, not only to our spouse, but also to our kids – they’re also part of your world that you’re in. And if they don’t understand the stresses that you’re going through, in a mature way, then nobody’s gonna understand, you know, mom’s got problems too. The wife, you know, as a wife, she has problems. Nobody’s gonna understand that if you are just internalizing all those things, and not getting them out. So, get that weight off your shoulders. Express it, say it, and see how they respond to it. And then you start to go from there and start to get rid of some of these layers that you’re carrying.

[VERONICA]:
Beautiful. Well, thank you so much, honey, for being a part of this show. This is crazy. We did it.

[WILLIE]:
Yeah, we did.

[VERONICA]:
You still nervous?

[WILLIE]:
No, I’m good now.

[VERONICA]:
All right, you guys. I hope you’re enjoying the rest of your day. Bye.

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This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, Practice of the Practice, or the guests are providing legal, mental health, or other professional information. If you need a professional, you should find one.